Tuesday, December 30, 2014

"...Having Taught Man the Use of the Pen..."


aamna - Hello there  :)

I was just wondering because I thought art was haram in Islam, in fact that's one of the reasons that I want to leave it. I love Art but it's obvious that it isn't allowed in Islam - well, of animate things anyway. So how did you balance? Do you just not draw animate things? Thanks.

Muhammad Rasheed - Hi, aamna

It's funny that you said it was "obvious" that art isn't allowed in Islam, considering that there's nothing in the Qur'an saying it is forbidden.  The prophet Muhammad (pbuh) would never command anything that Allah Himself didn't command.

aamna - That's how I justified it to myself. But you can't simply choose to ignore the hadiths. They come from the most reliable and authentic sources. 

Hadith 7.838 (Sahih Bukhari) We were with Masruq at the house of Yasar bin Numair. Masruq saw pictures on his terrace and said, "I heard 'Abdullah saying that he heard the Prophet saying, "The people who will receive the severest punishment from Allah will be the picture makers.'" (Narrated by Muslim)

Hadith 7.846 (Sahih Bukhari) (the wife of the Prophet) I bought a cushion having pictures on it. When Allah's Apostle saw it, he stopped at the gate and did not enter. I noticed the signs of hatred (for that) on his face! I said, "O Allah's Apostle! I turn to Allah and His Apostle in repentance! What sin have I committed?" He said, "What about this cushion?" I said, - I bought it for you to sit on and recline on." Allah's Apostle said, "The makers of these pictures will be punished (severely) on the Day of Resurrection and it will be said to them, 'Make alive what you have created.'" He added, "Angels do not enter a house in which there are pictures."(narrated by Ayesha).

Hadith 7.840 (Sahih Bukhari) Allah's Apostle returned from a journey when I had placed a curtain of mine having pictures over (the door of) a chamber of mine. When Allah's Apostle saw it, he tore it and said, "The people who will receive the severest punishment on the Day of Resurrection will be those who try to make the like of Allah's creations."  So we turned it (i.e., the curtain) into one or two cushions. (Narrated by Ayesha)

There are many, many more hadith on this topic. If you don't believe these are authentic, then you probably don't follow hadith because Sahih Bukhari is the most trusted source of hadiths in the world. Yes, the Quran doesn't mention it, but the Prophet is the example to follow and he has made it very clear to stay away from it, which is why I used the word 'obvious'.

Muhammad Rasheed - It's not a empty justification; it's reason and logic applied to scholarship.  The hadith are not the Word of God, and again, the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) only commanded what Allah Himself commanded.  If Allah didn't command it, and the hadith is actually authentic, then the prophet's words were from Muhammad the man, and were only suggestion, and were expressed that way.  If the words were expressed as a command, yet there are no verses or anything in the Qur'an to back them up, then they were in fact unauthentic hadith that some conman made up in the past, and pretended to be hadith.  

I follow hadith, but I do not do so as a fool.  The hadith do not rank higher than the Qur'an for a reason, and should be properly scrutinized with a discerning mind. 

aamna - Yes, the hadith does not rank higher than the Quran but it doesn't say that Art is allowed in the Quran either. The prophet (saw) always talked about the topics that weren't addressed. 

Also, he wasn't a mere man. The prophet (saw) is Allah's favourite creation. His name is beside his on the throne. His hadith should be taken very seriously (obviously the authentic ones - Sahih bukhari and Muslim). Not following the perfect example, means going astray. He made his rule on art really clear and he is the best in Allah's eyes. You cannot love and follow Allah without loving and following the Propeht, because Allah clearly loves him.

Muhammad Rasheed  –  aamna wrote: “Yes, the hadith does not rank higher than the Quran but it doesn't say that Art is allowed in the Quran either.” 

So, if Allah never said that art wasn't allowed then the prophet definitely never said it either.  He only commanded what his Lord commanded of us.

aamna wrote: “The prophet (saw) always talked about the topics that weren't addressed.”

Sure, but he only used his authority as messenger on those items that Allah commanded of us. 

aamna wrote: “Also, he wasn't a mere man.”

Of course he was.  All of the prophets were mere men.  Allah said that if the earth were populated with angels, then He would've used angels as His prophets instead.  

aamna wrote: “The prophet (saw) is Allah's favourite creation.”

What are you basing that on?  Allah said the believers are not to show favoritism between the prophets, as that brotherhood all had the same mission.

aamna wrote: “His name is beside his on the throne. His hadith should be taken very seriously (obviously the authentic ones - Sahih bukhari and Muslim).”

The authentic hadith are the ones that reflect what Allah said, and that reflect the objective known facts about the prophet's personality.  It doesn't matter whose name is labeled upon them.

aamna wrote: “Not following the perfect example, means going astray.”

I agree 100%.

aamna wrote: “He made his rule on art really clear and he is the best in Allah's eyes.”

The prophet Muhammad made no rules that Allah didn't command first.

aamna wrote: “You cannot love and follow Allah without loving and following the Propeht, because Allah clearly loves him.”

You cannot love and follow Allah while worshiping His messenger.  I wish you all would stop it.  It is offensive to those of use who worship the One God alone.

aamna - Excuse me, I don't worship the prophet. I'm not even a Muslim. I'm just saying, it's pretty obvious how important Muhammad is in the religion of Islam. He's basically the perfect muslim. Thought that was well known among muslims. Well, you're doing better than me I guess anyway. Islam is man-made to me anyway.

Muhammad Rasheed - aamna wrote: “Excuse me,  I don't worship the prophet. I'm not even a Muslim. I'm just saying...”

Oh.  Well, you were arguing pretty hard from a quasi-pagan stance, that was starting to sound the way the Christians sound over their deified messenger.

aamna wrote: “...it's pretty obvious how important Muhammad is in the religion of Islam.”

The second Pillar of Faith is "Belief in the Prophets."  That is very important.  Why?  Because the prophets were tasked the mission of receiving the sacred revelation and instructing us in scripture & wisdom so that we would have the opportunity to be saved.  That's the sole reason why they are important... all of them, equally.  They are the ones responsible for giving you the message from the One that made you.

aamna wrote: “He's basically the perfect muslim. Thought that was well known among muslims.”

That is precisely why it is important that we recognize him as "merely a man."  It means that if he can do it, we all can do it, and there is no excuse for failure.  If you know the rules and are able-bodied, then if you find yourself in hell you have only yourself to blame and none other.

aamna wrote: “Well, you're doing better than me I guess anyway. Islam is man-made to me anyway.”

I suggest you repent, surrender to your Lord and save yourself from a Fire whose fuel is men & stones.  Attain paradise instead and know Bliss, aamna.  Although the Path can be a hassle sometimes, this will be better for you than what you are thinking.

aamna - I've tried but I see so many mistakes and flaws in Islam. In the Quran itself, it seems like it was made to appeal to the Arab men of the seventh century. The description of heaven sounds boring, and the description of hell sounds too cruel for the Most Loving God to subject his creation to forever. It just doesn't add up. Have you never had doubts?

Muhammad Rasheed - aamna wrote: “I've tried but I see so many mistakes and flaws in Islam.”

lol Like what?  Why are you so sure that what you see is a mistake?  That sounds arrogant to me.  Would you know more than an omniscient being that creates universes from scratch?  Could you hope to match such a being’s insight into what moves the humans that He created?

aamna wrote: “In the Quran itself, it seems like it was…”

“Seems?” 

“Seems” doesn’t sound like sure knowledge, aamna.  Are you really going to risk hellfire for what "seems” like something, when human illusionists like Criss Angel and David Copperfield routinely trick you into thinking things “seem” one way over another?  Curious.  A human being’s got to know his limitations if he hopes to reach at least Step One of sure knowledge. 

aamna wrote: “…made to appeal to the Arab men of the seventh century.”

Why wouldn’t it?  They were the ones chosen to receive the final message of sacred scripture, and as such, their burden was to master it so they could teach it to the world.  Naturally the teacher needed to fully grasp it in his own tongue, using imagery that would drive it home to him best so he would know how to translate it to you.

aamna wrote: “The description of heaven sounds boring…”

Heaven is a spiritual realm that you have zero experience with.  The descriptions in the Qur’an are only physical world analogies that basically say that it will be like the best stuff you can imagine (remember He was talking to the Arabs) but better than that x1,000,000,000,000 and will last forever!  So just replace the stuff that a 7th century Arab would like with stuff a 21st century person would like from your part of the world.  Now you still get a tiny glimpse of what paradise would be like. 

aamna wrote: “…and the description of hell sounds too cruel for the Most Loving God to subject his creation to forever. It just doesn't add up.”

If that is truly how you feel about it… that hell sounds TOO horrifying… then will you not feel stupid if you actually find yourself there?  If you’ve had ample time to contemplate how horrifying this torture realm will be (and again, replace stuff that sounds terrible to a 7th century Arab to the worst stuff you can imagine) then why would you possibly call God’s bluff and risk actually being banished to hell??? 

Is that logical to you?

aamna wrote: “Have you never had doubts?”

Of course.  Am I not human?  Those doubts are the very temptations that beckon me to hell that my Lord commanded me to avoid so that I can go to paradise instead.

Are you actually taking heed to the doubts?  Why would you do that?  Do you hate yourself?

aamna - I don't doubt there's a creator, I'm certain of a God existing who created everything. I'm just having trouble with Islam being from him. The book just isn't so miraculous. It's nothing out of the ordinary work of man. I'd expected more out of the one true God. He didn't mention any great scienitifc claim, no evidence; nothing that would separate his work from a normal man's. His ideas are just taken from what was common at that time. There is so much doubt around it and why would a God punish someone for using their logic against it? Why would a perfect book be so ambiguous that anyone can interpret anything from it - even though its supposed to be clear? There is nothing special about the Quran. To me, it's incredibly boring to read and its main basis is fear of hellfire. The subjects jump constantly and I have read better work. To be honest, no I haven't read the Arabic form and the Quran in its true entirety and I have no right to state my opinion as fact but I can say that I dislike the message. I do NOT agree with wife beating, or men being equivalent to two women. I disagree with the marriage of young girls. I disagree with slavery - no matter how nice you are to them, it should not be allowed at all. As a developed species, we've overcame such things and I feel it's delusional to keep practising those things. It's an obstacle in our development. There was a time for the Quran and I hate to say it, but I think it's over.

Muhammad Rasheed - aamna wrote: “I don't doubt there's a creator, I'm certain of a God existing who created everything. I'm just having trouble with Islam being from him.”

I don’t think you came to these conclusions on your own.  I’ve encountered this exact same list on numerous occasions around the Internet, and it sounds more like an ideological recruiting/conversion effort.  None of these points are very logical based on fundamental insight into Al-Islam and the Qur’an.

aamna wrote: “The book just isn't so miraculous. It's nothing out of the ordinary work of man.”

You think so?  You don’t think it miraculous that an illiterate man would begin to speak a body of revelation, and that in a single draft, would cause the Arabic language to reach “its utmost capacity of expression, and the literature its highest point of complexity and sophistication. Indeed, it probably is no exaggeration to say that the Quran was one of the most conspicuous forces in the making of classical and post-classical Arabic literature.”  For someone who can’t even read and write to perform such a deed in a single draft seems pretty miraculous to me, and quite extraordinary.  Perhaps you have evidence where such a phenomenon is actually pretty routine and happens all the time?  If this is so, perhaps we should stop teaching our kids to read and write?

aamna wrote: “I'd expected more out of the one true God.”

Again I think it is odd whenever an omnipotent and omniscient being is criticized by very, very non-omnipotent, non-omniscient beings.  Do you really have a critique for how you think such a being should/would behave, or what technique He should use for conveying His message to His creation?  This being… by definition… knows all, is limited by nothing, can see into the far future and knows the distant past.  This being knows levels of mastery over items so complex and subtle, it would be impossible for you to even prepare to understand how He could possibly do it.  This is the being that created the concept and structure of mathematics from scratch.  I think this comment of yours far oversteps your bounds as a created creature, and lacks all insight. 

aamna wrote: “He didn't mention any great scienitifc claim…”

He said He created the universe with the force of His will alone.  That isn’t great enough for you, aamna?  Tell me what would qualify as great to you.  Rocket back-packs?

aamna wrote: “…no evidence;”

God, in His mercy, told you the Truth, and gave you a guide book to enable you to take full advantage of that Truth so that you will prosper in this world and in the next.  The evidence lies in taking Him at His word and doing as He says; the fruits of that obedience will be evident -- the resulting success a testimony to the greatness of the Lord of the worlds.

aamna wrote: “…nothing that would separate his work from a normal man's.”

Mere men complain that the Qur’anic verses possess a “lack of continuity, absence of any chronological or thematic order and presence of repetition," even as they are awed when these same traits produce a quasi-preternatural devotion in the believer, enable the believer to memorize the texts in its entirety, and enable an entire culture’s language to achieve the highest levels of classical literature expression.  Yet you claim that this is actually no different than the work of any mere human being.  Interesting.

aamna wrote: “His ideas are just taken from what was common at that time.”

Is that why the Qur’an changed the world?  Note that there is only One God, and His message is one message that has endured throughout the ages, each component revealed through, and preached by, one of His messengers.  Each of the components of the message of God referenced ("confirmed & fulfilled") the components of the message that came before it, and I find it strange that you would think the Qur’an is unusual in this.  Again you are demonstrating a basic lack of insight into this faith that I assumed you’d been studying your whole life.  Are you really going to risk hellfire over these silly items that some atheist made up and circulated throughout the ‘Net while pretending they are truths about Islam?  Atheists never have insight into religion, that’s why they are atheists.  With their narrow-minded mentality they refuse to contemplate anything outside of what they can experience with their physical senses.   They are not the ones to take as mentors and teachers when it comes to deeper matters, especially those in which your immortal soul are hinged, aamna.

aamna wrote: “There is so much doubt around it…”

Doubt is normal.  Surrendering to doubt is foolish. 

aamna wrote: “…and why would a God punish someone for using their logic against it?"

Because God knows and you know not.  He told you that.  Why would you gamble that your little bit of logic is superior to the Supreme Creator’s Truth?  Doubt all you wish, but give the Lord of all the worlds the benefit of the doubt that He knows what he is talking about, please, for your own sake.

aamna wrote: “Why would a perfect book be so ambiguous that anyone can interpret anything from it - even though its supposed to be clear?”

The book is clear.  The problem here is that you are directing your critical eye in the wrong direction.  It’s the humans that read the text that are stupid.   Sometimes they are stupid because they were born slow, and sometimes they are willfully stupid and refuse to see truth because they prefer to hold onto worthless ideologies and/or mindsets that will not profit them.

aamna wrote: “There is nothing special about the Quran.”

lol We’re just going to have to agree to disagree on that point.  I 100% disagree with this and just don’t see it that way.  If you can’t see it then I can’t help you to see it. 

aamna wrote: “To me, it's incredibly boring to read and its main basis is fear of hellfire.”

Its main basis is dual:  paradise & hellfire. 

aamna wrote: “The subjects jump constantly and I have read better work.”

Better work in that genre? 

aamna wrote: “To be honest, no I haven't read the Arabic form and the Quran in its true entirety…”

Have you read it in its entirety in your native tongue?

aamna wrote: “…and I have no right to state my opinion as fact but I can say that I dislike the message.”

Believe in the One God, do good deeds, avoid bad deeds, and repent when you mess up is the message of the Qur’an, aamna.

aamna wrote: “I do NOT agree with wife beating…”

That’s not the message of the Qur’an.  Remember what the verse said?  Tell me.

aamna wrote: “…or men being equivalent to two women.”

It didn’t say that men are the equivalent to two women.  What did the verse say?

aamna wrote: “I disagree with the marriage of young girls.”

What do old Semite traditions have to do with the Qur’an?  Is that a command from Allah??? 

aamna wrote: “I disagree with slavery - no matter how nice you are to them, it should not be allowed at all.”

Allah said that doing good deeds is how you will enter paradise, and He lists “freeing a slave” as a good deed.  lol  What does that sound like to you regarding the Qur’an’s position on slavery as a whole?  Doesn’t the Qur’an encourage the believer to perform good deeds?  So since it considers freeing the slave as a good deed, what does that imply logically?

aamna wrote: “As a developed species, we've overcame such things and I feel it's delusional to keep practising those things.”

If Allah encourages you to do a particular good deed, but you as an individual refuse to do it out of greed, then why are you blaming the Qur’an for the behavior?  Is THAT logical?

aamna wrote: “It's an obstacle in our development.”

It’s an obstacle in a willful individual’s development.  Uthman would free a slave every Friday, remember?  That’s why he was one of those who were “rightly guided,” right?  He obeyed the commands of God in the Qur’an.  So what are the grounds for your complaints against the Qur’an now?

aamna wrote: “There was a time for the Quran and I hate to say it, but I think it's over.”

lol

aamna - This is getting pretty interesting and I think I need to start responding properly and in depth as so far, I've just been giving rather illogical and emotional arguments without evidence. Of course, I'm not trying to de-convert you but if you win me over, then I'm not one to be stubborn and I'll truly and simply accept islam. But there are problems that appear pretty evident to me and I'll go in depth with them below. Just before I start, you said that us, as humans, are in no position to criticise God because he's omnipotent, omniscient and such. The problem with me is that I truly believe in a God such as that, like I mentioned before, but I just can't see that God being the God who claims to have wrote the Quran. In my opinion, God is the creator of everything and he's above all human attributes. He just isn't who Allah presents himself as, I feel like the writer of the Quran is just anthropomorphic (vain, misogynistic, cruel, etc). Anyway, let me get started.

Firstly, let's establish what Islam has given us to follow: the Quran and the Prophet. The Quran is perfect and this is accepted as fact by every Muslim. It has been sent down from Allah and it is unaltered, unchanged and remains perfect to this day. It was sent down in Arabic because that was the most poetic and prevalent language in the time it was revealed. It has been translated and many blame any problems upon the translations, because it isn't in its true entirety and form. Furthermore, muslims believe the Quran to be the greatest miracle from Allah and think of it as substantial evidence for guidance. Now, let's look at the Prophet (pbuh) - unlike any other prophet, Muhammad (pbuh) has been sent to all of humanity and is the example for all of mankind until the day of judgement. Due to this, it is evident that regardless of where you live, what time you live in or what language you speak, the Prophet is who you should strive to follow. This is stressed in the Quran and his great character is constantly praised:

"You have an excellent model in the Messenger of Allah, for all who put their hope in Allah and the Last Day and remember Allah much. (33:21)  

"And most certainly, thou [O Muhammad] are of most sublime and exalted character."  
(68:4)  

"Say, [O Muhammad], "O mankind, indeed I am the Messenger of Allah to you all, [from Him] to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no deity except Him; He gives life and causes death." So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the unlettered prophet, who believes in Allah and His words, and follow him that you may be guided." (7:158)

He himself also states that he was sent to all of mankind (I got the full quote, but you just need to see the last line):

Volume 1, Book 7, Number 331:
Narrated by Jabir bin 'Abdullah
The Prophet said, "I have been given five things which were not given to any one else before me. 1. Allah made me victorious by awe, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey. 2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum, therefore anyone of my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due. 3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me. 4. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection). 5. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been Sent to all mankind.

From all this, we can understand that indeed, for anyone of any time, the Prophet is the example. Muslims are to strive to be like him if they wish to succeed. He was and is far more precious to Allah than any other human. Now, that's sort of the basic understanding. As muslims, we have only two main sources of guidance and they are apparently supposed to be sufficient. The Quran and the Prophet are both gifts to mankind and Islam teaches muslims to follow these two in order to gain heaven and avoid hell. Islam makes a lot of sense when you briefly overlook it like I've just done. It seems true and perfect - but only if the Quran and the Prophet live up to their expectations that Islam has set up. That's when the problems come in for me.

I read the Quran twice in my childhood before actually looking at the meaning. I had never read the actual translation. Of course, I loved most of it and the parts I didn't like, I blamed on misunderstanding because I was just a kid and so I probably didn't understand it yet. I thought it was perfect; well, the parts I understood. I was scared of hell and strived for heaven. In the last few years, I've been going to mosque and bought myself a Quran with the English translation below each line. It also breaks down each arabic word and tells you it's meaning. It helped me learn a lot of Arabic words and we also studied Arabic at the mosque. Back to the Quran, I was really expecting perfection. It actually did live up to its greatness - if you skipped the parts that you disliked blindly and pretended to not have seen them. I loved the way it was written but I had many questions that no one was prepared to answer. Why was the Quran written as if talking directly to a male reader? Throughout the majority of the Quran, the women were referred to in third person. 

I'll give you an example:

"O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take [back] part of what you gave them unless they commit a clear immorality. And live with them in kindness. For if you dislike them - perhaps you dislike a thing and Allah makes therein much good." (4:19)

This is consistent through out a lot of the Quran. In fact, the only scenarios where this doesn't happen is when addressing the wives of the Prophet for an event that took place in their time. This assumed 'male audience' and the ayat above gives the impression that Allah himself expects the men to go talk to the woman instead of addressing them directly in the Quran. It shows sexism - he doesn't talk directly to woman for it shows that he is above them and he needs to lower himself in order to talk to them. Please correct me on this if you think I'm wrong.

Also, as I mentioned very briefly in the previous message, about the idea of heaven being tailored for Arab men: you see, I used to believe heaven was everything and even as a kid, when I read descriptions about it in the Quran, I used to dismiss them because I wanted it to be what I wanted to be. I really didn't care for rivers of honey, wine, milk. I wanted cooler things and I never understood why the Quran described such a heaven. In my opinion, heaven should be left for the reader to imagine because everyone has different desires and wants. I don't think the Quran should've mentioned such detailed descriptions of heaven in the Quran because it makes it seem like it was made for certain people.

"Indeed, Allah will admit those who believe and do righteous deeds to gardens beneath which rivers flow. They will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and pearl, and their garments therein will be silk." (22:23)

"And those foremost will be foremost (in Paradise). These will be those nearest to Allah. In the Gardens of delight (Paradise). A multitude of those (foremost) will be from the first generations (who embraced Islam). And a few of those (foremost) will be from the later time (generations). (They will be) on thrones woven with gold and precious stones, Reclining thereon, face to face. They will be served by immortal boys, With cups, and jugs, and a glass from the flowing wine, Wherefrom they will get neither any aching of the head, nor any intoxication. And fruit; that they may choose. And the flesh of fowls that they desire. And (there will be) Houris (fair females) with wide, lovely eyes (as wives for the pious), Like unto preserved pearls.A reward for what they used to do. No Laghw (dirty, false, evil vain talk) will they hear therein, nor any sinful speech (like backbiting, etc.). But only the saying of: Salam!, Salam! (greetings with peace) !And those on the Right Hand, - Who will be those on the Right Hand? (They will be) among thornless lote-trees, Among Talh (banana-trees) with fruits piled one above another,In shade long-extended, By water flowing constantly, And fruit in plenty, Whose season is not limited, and their supply will not be cut off, And on couches or thrones, raised high. Verily, We have created them (maidens) of special creation. And made them virgins. Loving (their husbands only), equal in age." (56:10-37)

Look at the detail it goes into. Shouldn't heaven be different for every individual? Yet the writer has assumed that this is what is desired of all. Once again, the writer also appears to assume that a man is reading by talking of bountiful ladies in heaven. It's everything an Arab man from that time would want. Also, many of the good things of heaven are just common earthly things. Wouldn't you expect better than trees, fruit and rivers? It's just the beauty of this world. It's the same in this vision of heaven. You get food, sex, wine, etc. The stuff that you weren't allowed on earth. I guess what I mean is that - even though you're allowed to ask for things - the description of heaven disappoints me. It seems to be created for man. Yes, it mentions wives briefly but rants on about what the man shall get. I think there shouldn't have been a description of heaven in such detail as that it's a flaw in itself. Heaven is what you want it to be, but he's specifically made it for the Arabs. It seems so earthly. The true Creator is capable of incredible things - this is the ultimate reward for his creation, wouldn't you expect it to be better than common earthly things? He has the power to make it absolutely sensational, I mean look at the world around us, he created it. Surely, he'd be able to make an amazing heaven that surpasses the earth, but then why is the description of heaven so common, unexciting and fixed? To me, the idea of heaven should be flexible to every reader: man or woman.

Now, the other side of the spectrum is hell. This side is for the ones who failed to come to the true path even though the Quran has been sent down and should be enough to persuade them. When the concept of hell exists, you suddenly need justice. We understand that a person should not be punished for nothing. It's common sense. We realise that you can't punish someone without them having done anything wrong. If someone does something wrong unknowingly, then we don't punish them, we tell them and we expect them not to repeat it again. The only warning we have is in the Quran. Because of the existence of hell, suddenly the Quran has a massive burden to carry: it has to be sufficient in providing evidence and persuading a reader. It is the thing that will deter your path to hell and Allah has created it for that purpose, so it needs to be strong enough to not cause doubt. If it is confusing and doesn't provide a lot of evidence, then it wouldn't be fair simply because our 'warning' was not strong enough. Do you understand what I mean? Okay, so here's some descriptions of hell:

"...Those who deny (their Lord), for them will be cut out a garment of Fire. Over their heads will be poured out boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins. In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them. Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back, and (it will be said), "Taste the Penalty of Burning!" (22:19-22)

"Is that the better entertainment or the Tree of Zaqqum? For We have truly made it (as) a trial for the wrong-doers. It is a tree that springs out of the bottom of Hell-Fire. The shoots of its fruit-stalks are like the heads of devils. Truly they will eat thereof and fill their bellies therewith. Then on top of that they will be given a mixture made of boiling water. Then shall their return be to the (Blazing) Fire" (37:62-68)

"Verily, the tree of deadly fruit will be the food of the sinful. Like molten lead will it boil in the belly, like the boiling of burning despair." (44:43-46).

Hell is mentioned a lot in the Quran; it comes up in nearly every chapter and strikes fear into the reader. Obviously, it's created for the sinners and disbelievers, and has just reasons behind it. If you have a heaven, you need a hell. However, though some people deserve the cruel punishments, I don't think anyone deserves eternal punishment. Especially not in a place as cruel and extreme as hell. Some of the punishments are just barbaric. According to scholars, the disbeliever who has heard about islam properly and clearly, yet refuses to believe, is the type of Kufr that will remain in hell forever. Now, say someone heard about Islam and decided to give it a go and they read the Quran. It's the perfection of the Quran that should prove islam to them, but what if they don't see it? Is that their fault? Allah in the Quran says many times that he himself decides on who to guide and who to cast a veil over. He leads astray whom he wills. So why should someone be punished for what Allah decided for them?

Let's move on to sexism because you asked for evidence:

"Your wives are a place of sowing of seed for you, so come to your place of cultivation however you wish and put forth [righteousness] for yourselves." (2:223)

"Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females." (4:11)

"And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you." (4:24)

"Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand." (4:34)

Hadith from Sahih Bukhari:

Volume 7, Book 62, Number 30: Narrated by Abdullah bin 'Uma

Allah's Apostle said, "Evil omen is in the women, the house and the horse.'

Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301: Narrated by Abu Said Al-Khudri

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the Deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the Deficiency in her religion."

That last hadith annoys me - simply because menstruation is something Allah has created. His creation is perfect, so why is there a deficiency in it? He created women that way but still he will punish women in hell (which there are a majority of). Apparently, women were naturally made more stupid, evil and less religious. Then why would they be punished? No wonder there are more women in hell. It's really stupid that women were 'made' this way but will burn for it.

I'm getting a bit tired now, so I'll try to brush up on a few other things about the Quran briefly. The science is a big barrier - you replied by saying that Allah creating the universe is evidence enough, but there are many things which don't seem to add up. The stories of prophets seem a bit far-fetched, like Noah (AS) and his Ark, how the ant talked to Sulaiman (AS) and how the people fell asleep in the cave for three hundred years or so. I also find it hard to believe that Adam was made 60 cubits/27.4 metres tall (Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 543). Evolution makes a lot more sense and has more evidence. Truly, if humans in the past were giants, we would've found skeletal remains and fossils. But we have found fossils to further prove evolution which is why I can't bring myself to believe in the Islamic creation story. If Allah wanted people to believe in Islam, why did he provide evidence against it? Why is there so much proof of evolution?

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a water gushing forth― Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs."
(86:5-7)

Pretty obviously talking about semen, but the location is incorrect and this was a common misconception of that time. We now know that it comes from testicles, not between the backbone and the ribs.

"Indeed, We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment of stars." (37:6)

"It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things." (2:29)

Okay, Allah has put the stars in the universe/lowest heaven, fair enough. But it is written in the second ayat, that Allah created the Earth before the Heavens. So, the earth was created before the stars. Which is obviously scientifically incorrect. The stars existed a long time before our planet came into existence. 

Also, there's this. It isn't in the Quran, it's just a hadith in Sahih Bukhari:

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421 :
Narrated by Abu Dhar
The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)

Clearly incorrect. We know that the sun doesn't go anywhere at night,  the sky only becomes dark because the earth rotates. 

Phew, got most of the Quran stuff out. Okay, now to the other matter: the Prophet (pbuh). He is a mercy to mankind, as said in the Quran. His example should be followed throughout all time among all people until the day of judgement. Just scroll up or recall the quotes I gave you before about his character and example. Let's now look at this man, who is someone we should be imitating. 

He was honest, trustworthy and kind. These attributes are mentioned endlessly in the hadith, narrations, etc. Of course, we should be attempting to put these attributes into our lives. He was a great man, but unfortunately, in my opinion, he wasn't the perfect example.

Firstly, and I hate to bring this up because it's so controversial, is the marriage between Aisha and the Prophet (pbuh). This is something that I wouldn't expect the example for all of mankind to do. Simply because, we wouldn't do it today. I mean, some countries still practise in secret, but in the west, it's illegal. It's seen as many negative things that I don't even want to mention. I know that the relationship between Aisha and the prophet was really good - they were always nice to each other and loved each other dearly. But the Prophet was in his fifties, and she was only six when they got married. She was nine when they consummated the marriage.

Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234 :
Narrated by Aisha
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of Six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

What do you think of this? Many people retort to context, but the prophet (pbuh) was the example for all eternity. All times, all places. Is this a correct practise? Should this be continued today? 

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 270 :
Narrated by Jabir bin 'Abdullah
The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has really hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "O Allah's Apostle! Do you like me to kill him?" He replied in the affirmative. So, Muhammad bin Maslama went to him (i.e. Ka'b) and said, "This person (i.e. the Prophet) has put us to task and asked us for charity." Ka'b replied, "By Allah, you will get tired of him." Muhammad said to him, "We have followed him, so we dislike to leave him till we see the end of his affair." Muhammad bin Maslama went on talking to him in this way till he got the chance to kill him.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 264 :
Narrated by Al-Bara bin Azib
Allah's Apostle sent a group of Ansari men to kill Abu-Rafi. One of them set out and entered their (i.e. the enemies) fort. That man said, "I hid myself in a stable for their animals. They closed the fort gate. Later they lost a donkey of theirs, so they went out in its search. I, too, went out along with them, pretending to look for it. They found the donkey and entered their fort. And I, too, entered along with them. They closed the gate of the fort at night, and kept its keys in a small window where I could see them. When those people slept, I took the keys and opened the gate of the fort and came upon Abu Rafi and said, 'O Abu Rafi. When he replied me, I proceeded towards the voice and hit him. He shouted and I came out to come back, pretending to be a helper. I said, 'O Abu Rafi, changing the tone of my voice. He asked me, 'What do you want; woe to your mother?' I asked him, 'What has happened to you?' He said, 'I don't know who came to me and hit me.' Then I drove my sword into his belly and pushed it forcibly till it touched the bone. Then I came out, filled with puzzlement and went towards a ladder of theirs in order to get down but I fell down and sprained my foot. I came to my companions and said, 'I will not leave till I hear the wailing of the women.' So, I did not leave till I heard the women bewailing Abu Rafi, the merchant pf Hijaz. Then I got up, feeling no ailment, (and we proceeded) till we came upon the Prophet and informed him."

I don't understand why people should be killed on this earth when Allah has said that he will deal with people accordingly in the life after death. What is the need of punishing them in this life? It really doesn't make sense. Shouldn't the punishment be, once and for all, after the test? It shouldn't effect your life until the point of judgement. Shouldn't the Prophet have been patient with these people and left them to Allah? Surely, they would've gotten a bitter punishment later anyway. 

Whoa, I just released that I've wrote and ranted a lot. Sorry about that. :whistling: If you have answers, I'd be grateful to hear back. I've made sure all my quotes and sources are authentic - I only used the Quran and Sahih Bukhari (the most trusted hadith book in Islam). Feel free to look any of them up. Also, one more question: Allah created man in the best form as said in (95:4), so why is circumcision necessary and encouraged by the Prophets? 

Volume 8, Book 74, Number 312 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
The Prophet said "Five things are in accordance with Al Fitra (i.e. the tradition of prophets): to be circumcised, to shave the pelvic region, to pull out the hair of the armpits, to cut short the moustaches, and to clip the nails.'

Just a random question that I've been wondering. Anyway, I hope I've gotten some points across to you - I know you'll probably have answers. Can't wait to hear back.


Muhammad Rasheed - aamna wrote: “Just before I start, you said that us, as humans, are in no position to criticise God because he's omnipotent, omniscient and such. The problem with me is that I truly believe in a God such as that, like I mentioned before, but I just can't see that God being the God who claims to have wrote the Quran.  In my opinion, God is the creator of everything and he's above all human attributes. He just isn't who Allah presents himself as, I feel like the writer of the Quran is just anthropomorphic (vain, misogynistic, cruel, etc).” 

Yes, I’ve heard that before from other people, and my counter is: But how could you know?  How could you be so sure, with your extremely limited and finite mind, that the Qur’an isn’t what it claims to be from the being who gifted it to us, and that you are misunderstanding something, or God deliberately presented the book to us in such a way (like His descriptions of the reward/punishment realms) as to meet us down where we are intellectually based on the inherent limitations that He created us with?  Why aren’t you giving the Omniscient Lord of all the worlds the benefit of the doubt that He knows and you know not, and that any deficiency you think you see is actually the fault of your own limited understanding?  The stance you are taking seems unreasonable to me.  Do you understand my position in this?  In other words, I literally have zero reason to accept or uphold your ‘logic’ over the truth of the Supreme Creator; I will automatically approach the ‘logical’ criticism of any mere human as if it is inherently flawed if it dares to compare itself to the truth of Allah.  God is God.  He is perfect and makes no mistakes.  I give Him the benefit of the doubt that this is His truth.  You are a human being, and are by no means perfect.  You need the message of Allah to save you from hellfire, and the adversary is continuously bombarding you with falsehood beckoning you to the edge of that fire.  Because of this, any argument or ‘logic’ that you think you have that is supposed to represent a weakness in the truth of the Lord Most High is automatically suspect, and will be intensely scrutinized as a falsehood.  Anything that calls into question the truth of my Lord, anything that dares hint at the opposite of the truth my Lord presents is a falsehood by default and is treated as such by me. 

Why?

Because I am a believer, and I have total faith that truth belongs to Allah; all lesser truths radiate from His source.   Allah and His truth are the authority that backs my argument, and enables me to walk in assurance.  I give Him the benefit of the doubt that what He has is true, and any illusion that it is less than true is always the fault of the mere men charged to guard the message.  God knows His creation better than we can EVER hope to know it, and if He says that an aspect of His creation is a certain way, then that’s just how it is, and is absolutely the truth of the matter, no matter how uncomfortable that truth may fall upon our sensitive ears.  Truth is OFTEN harsh.  Truth is OFTEN uncomfortable.  Tell me: Would you rather be uncomfortable on your journey towards paradise, or soothed & sated on the road towards hell?  Lies are designed to put you at false ease, and calm you down so you won’t notice the nonsense behind the scenes working to undermine your life. 

The Qur’an, O aamna, is no less than the Supreme Creator of the heavens & the earth giving you raw truth.  This truth is unfiltered, with no middle man first softening it so it won’t hurt your feelings when you hear it.  God doesn’t coddle His creation; you have a finite number of years to get it right, and He doesn’t pull His punches in telling you the truth.  You said above that you’ve read better works.  Were they better because they didn’t make you uncomfortable?  That they rubbed your back, and rocked you gently while telling you what you wanted to hear and not what you needed to save you from hellfire?

Repent of your disbelief, recognize the Qur’an as what it is, and bow down to your Guardian Lord who made you.  The One God of Abraham is the Author of the Qur’an!  Glorified is He!  Exalted in might!  Worthy of praise!

aamna wrote: “Firstly, let's establish what Islam has given us to follow: the Quran and the Prophet. The Quran is perfect and this is accepted as fact by every Muslim. It has been sent down from Allah and it is unaltered, unchanged and remains perfect to this day. It was sent down in Arabic because that was the most poetic and prevalent language in the time it was revealed.”

It is an Arabic Qur’an to fulfill the prophecy of the Law of Moses in Deuteronomy, where He warned the children of Israel that if they did not act right He would raise up a prophet-messenger from among their brethren nation, which would fill them with much envy, and who would only say what Allah commanded him to say in His name.   Of course they continued to rebel, and God indeed rose up that prophet from the nation of Ishmael… the unlettered prophet whose native tongue was Arabic.  Allah foresaw these events from waaayyy back, and if Arabic happens to be the best language to reveal His scripture in, then that is only because Allah is indeed the Best of Planners.  Glory be to Allah!  The All-Knowing!  The Wise!

aamna wrote: “It has been translated and many blame any problems upon the translations, because it isn't in its true entirety and form.”

*shrug*   Sometimes this is true.  More often though, the deficiency is in the reader.

aamna wrote: “Furthermore, muslims believe the Quran to be the greatest miracle from Allah and think of it as substantial evidence for guidance.”

lol  I agree with the latter, but the former is highly questionable.  Personally I consider Allah’s greatest miracle to be the creation of this universe.  The Qur’an is certainly “A” miracle, but between sending 22 years worth of telegram correspondence to Muhammad (pbuh) through Gabriel (copy/pasted from a divine book that had already been written mind), versus creating a universe from scratch, which one was probably the most difficult?  I have a problem with folk who are incapable of seeing pass doctrine of any type to properly apply logic and reason.

aamna wrote: “Now, let's look at the Prophet (pbuh) - unlike any other prophet, Muhammad (pbuh) has been sent to all of humanity and is the example for all of mankind until the day of judgement.”

The Qur’an was sent to all of mankind; Muhammad was sent to the Arabs.  When the prophets return on the Last Day (yes, ALL of them, not just Jesus & Muhammad), they will complete the final mission of their prophethood, which is to bear witness for or against the specific people they preached to during their lifetimes.  That is why all of the prophets are to be treated the same; none is to be uplifted above any other per command of Allah Himself.  They all had the exact same job.  But the book that closes the canon of revealed scripture is the universal message to all of mankind; uphold the Qur’an above all other remnants of previous scripture, but not the messengers themselves.

aamna wrote: “Due to this, it is evident that regardless of where you live, what time you live in or what language you speak, the Prophet is who you should strive to follow. This is stressed in the Quran and his great character is constantly praised:”

One of the duties of the prophets is to show you how to walk out the Word of Allah in your life.  They all did this.  And in Muhammad’s case, of all the men on earth during the 7th century, he was the one who walked out the message better than all others, and his Lord had no cause for complaint in how he did it.  So yes, when in doubt, follow the way of Muhammad.  Consequently, it should stand to reason, that the believing community should have had the idea to compile a record of the deeds & sayings of Muhammad WAAAAYYYY before the two centuries after his death that the hadith started to be compiled in.  Surely that was a missed opportunity, that the guardianship over the clearly valuable body of hadith was no where near as stellar as the Muslims’ guardianship over the Qur’an.  Even if it was, it would still require a great deal of high-level scholarly scrutiny, that is quite absent in the hadith we have today.  To pretend otherwise is borderline insane. 

aamna wrote: “He himself also states that he was sent to all of mankind (I got the full quote, but you just need to see the last line):”

I can’t take that seriously, aamna.  If it were true, then he would bear witness over all of us when he returned on the Day of Judgment, and obviously that is ridiculous.  Those of us who lived outside of the Era of the Prophets will miss out on being witnessed in Court  by the messengers.  For example, on the Day of Judgment when Abu Bakr stands before his Lord to be judged, he will indeed see the prophet Muhammad.  The prophet will be asked if Abu Bakr heard the message, and if he accepted it or not.  Likewise, Abu Lahab will also see his nephew on Judgment Day, and to his terror, will hear the same questions asked.  By contrast, you and I will not see the prophet during our Day in Court.

aamna wrote: “From all this, we can understand that indeed, for anyone of any time, the Prophet is the example.”

He was the example for his time; other prophets were the examples of their times.

aamna wrote: “Muslims are to strive to be like him if they wish to succeed.”

True.  His job was to instruct us in how to obey Allah in His Qur’an, and if we wish to do so most correctly, we need to specifically see how Muhammad did it since that was the specific message assigned to him.  Common sense.  Samuel’s, Noah’s or Joshua’s examples would be significantly less efficient in this regard.  lol  They knew not the Qur’an.

aamna wrote: “He was and is far more precious to Allah than any other human. Now, that's sort of the basic understanding.”

All of the prophets took the covenant, obeyed Allah, and are among those nearest to Him as Companions of the Right Hand, and were rightly guided.  They represent the best of us all, and the ultimate standard for human behavior in the sight of God.   Muhammad was merely the last of them.

aamna wrote: “As muslims, we have only two main sources of guidance and they are apparently supposed to be sufficient.”

Sacred scripture is multi-layered and deep, capable of meeting you where you are in your spiritual maturity at any point in your life.  But at its most basic level – believe in the One God, do good, avoid evil, repent when you mess up – it is indeed sufficient to enable the simplest believer to attain the ultimate reward.  A mercy from the Lord of all the worlds. 

aamna wrote: “I read the Quran twice in my childhood before actually looking at the meaning. I had never read the actual translation. Of course, I loved most of it and the parts I didn't like, I blamed on misunderstanding because I was just a kid and so I probably didn't understand it yet. I thought it was perfect; well, the parts I understood. I was scared of hell and strived for heaven.”

At least you got that part right.  lol 

aamna wrote: “In the last few years, I've been going to mosque and bought myself a Quran with the English translation below each line. It also breaks down each arabic word and tells you it's meaning. It helped me learn a lot of Arabic words and we also studied Arabic at the mosque.”

Sounds like a great experience really. 

aamna wrote: “Back to the Quran, I was really expecting perfection. It actually did live up to its greatness - if you skipped the parts that you disliked blindly and pretended to not have seen them. I loved the way it was written but I had many questions that no one was prepared to answer. Why was the Quran written as if talking directly to a male reader? Throughout the majority of the Quran, the women were referred to in third person.”

Why?  Because the people who were chosen to receive, preach & guard the Final Message of Allah, were semi-civilized, primitive, patriarchal tribesmen who not only had a complete monopoly on power and learning in those communities, but they also had ZERO respect for the female of the species.  Allah and His messenger met the people where they were, using a strategy best designed to enable them to receive the Word and write it in their hearts.  It is the Qur’an that civilized them, but recognizes that the original people to receive and guard the message are not necessarily the best of people to express it in its ultimate form on earth in action and deed.  Allah told the believers to compete with each other in righteousness, and strive among each other to be the best of those who believe in Him.    Do you think that task would be possible without superior study and scholarship able to see past the limitations of a 7th century Arab mind to grasp the best intended message that Allah was expressing in the text?  First seek to understand, and once understanding has been reached, do as your Lord commands to the best of your ability according to your understanding and insight.  Approach the Word of Allah as if you are approaching the most challenging mathematics classes… classes that you are capable of mastering, but you really have to PUSH yourself in order to do so.  But always lead these studies with the understanding that it is Allah who knows and you who know not.  Your level of mastery will never be His level of mastery.
 
aamna wrote: “This assumed 'male audience' and the ayat above gives the impression that Allah himself expects the men to go talk to the woman instead of addressing them directly in the Quran. It shows sexism - he doesn't talk directly to woman for it shows that he is above them and he needs to lower himself in order to talk to them. Please correct me on this if you think I'm wrong.”

It was part of the strategy, and in that society it WAS the men doing the leading and instructing, who held all the power.  They weren’t the only ones – many societies had a strong and sometimes oppressive patriarchal structure to the disadvantage of the women folk.  In our current societies we’ve managed to win certain liberties and respect for her, but you had best believe if we are ever hit by another global cataclysm that smashes us back down to the stone age, all that the women in this modern age have fought to attain will be lost, and they will once again find themselves at the old disadvantage in a primitive society struggling to survive in the old way.

Despite this strategy being in place, note that the ground work for Allah’s expectations as to how we are to treat each other and our womenfolk are indeed present within the Qur’an’s pages.  Allah said that the only thing we will be judged by on the Last Day will be our righteousness.  He will not judge us based on items we have no control over (gender, race, tribe of origin) but only the actions we chose to perform in life.  If the believer reads this, and then chooses to treat people poorly based on items that are not relevant in the Big Picture, then he is a fool.

aamna wrote: “Also, as I mentioned very briefly in the previous message, about the idea of heaven being tailored for Arab men: you see, I used to believe heaven was everything and even as a kid, when I read descriptions about it in the Quran, I used to dismiss them because I wanted it to be what I wanted to be. I really didn't care for rivers of honey, wine, milk. I wanted cooler things and I never understood why the Quran described such a heaven. In my opinion, heaven should be left for the reader to imagine because everyone has different desires and wants. I don't think the Quran should've mentioned such detailed descriptions of heaven in the Quran because it makes it seem like it was made for certain people.  Look at the detail it goes into. Shouldn't heaven be different for every individual?”

You’re frustrating me here because you give the impression you are determined to confine the message to a narrow box it is not designed to be in.  You know that the Qur’an is presented from the beginning as the universal message, so why are you acting like the earth is populated with Arabs?  lol    The earth is not populated with Arabs from the 7th century, aamna.  I’m sorry to have to be the one to break that to you.  hahahaha  Logic dictates that if this is proclaimed as the message to all of mankind, to obviously be tailored to the needs of each of the diverse people around the globe, then why in the world would you assume that what it describes in detail is literally what it’s trying to say it will be like?  How would that be possible?  When you arrive in paradise:

Angel: “Here you are, aamna!  Here’s that prized-winning white camel you always wanted that the Arab nations find so appealing!  Congrats!  You made it!”

Aamna: “What?!  But I don’t want a camel!  I wanted a winged unicorn when I got to heaven!  There’s been some kind of mistake…!”

Angel: “Are you calling God a liar?”

Aamna“no, sir.”  [hangs head]

lol

The Qur’an was revealed FIRST to the Arabs, and they were told that 1.) the message was not JUST for them and 2.) that the spiritual realm of paradise will have delights analogous to the things that gave them the most pleasure, but more so x Infinity, and that the spiritual realm of hell will be analogous to what torments them, but more so x Infinity.

Why in the world would anybody think that my reward would be equal to what someone else wants that I would be indifferent to?  That’s crazy. 

Realistically, paradise will be beautiful and wonderful beyond anything your senses can possibly imagine on its default level, and in addition to that, will be malleable to the force of your immortal will with no limits at all to this power.   Forever.  The ONLY way your mansion will have rivers of honey-milk flowing under it, and rice & lamb meals everyday, is if you happen to be really, REALLY into that stuff.  Relax! 

aamna wrote: “Yet the writer has assumed that this is what is desired of all.”

*groan*  Duuuude…!  What are you basing that on???  Didn’t God say the Qur’an was for everybody?  Then how would that conclusion even make sense?!  lol  Does everybody in the world feel the same way about camel sandwiches as the Arabs???

Is this really your argument???  hahahaha

aamna wrote: “Once again, the writer also appears to assume that a man is reading by talking of bountiful ladies in heaven. It's everything an Arab man from that time would want.”

Of COURSE it was!  The Arab men of that time had ALL of the power!  The message needed their buy-in in order to receive it, master it, and spread it around the globe.  If it was full of a bunch of alien stuff that they wouldn’t have understood nor cared about, then how could they have taken complete ownership of it and spread it with their famous quasi-fanatical enthusiasm?   Notice that other people in the history of Al-Islam (such as myself) didn’t have a problem receiving it the way it was intended.  The infinite spiritual rewards/punishments will be tailored for each individual… similar, but different.  Like DMT experiences in which people of vastly diverse backgrounds will experience similar things but, culturally different on individually familiar levels.  In this is a sign for those who believe. 

aamna wrote: “Also, many of the good things of heaven are just common earthly things.”

Right.  If He instead described the actual delights that are present around His throne in an eternal, alien realm, how do you think it will read?  It would sound batsh*t crazy to our human ears, like He was trippin' on ayahuasca.  He tempts and warns you using descriptions of experiences you already are familiar with:  “You know how much you enjoy strawberry cheesecake ice cream?  Well, kinda like that but a zillion times better and it will last forever.”    

aamna wrote: “Now, the other side of the spectrum is hell. This side is for the ones who failed to come to the true path even though the Quran has been sent down and should be enough to persuade them. When the concept of hell exists, you suddenly need justice. We understand that a person should not be punished for nothing. It's common sense. We realise that you can't punish someone without them having done anything wrong. If someone does something wrong unknowingly, then we don't punish them, we tell them and we expect them not to repeat it again. The only warning we have is in the Quran.”

God said that we will not be wronged.  How can He say that?  Well, He also said that He rose up a messenger from among EVERY people.  That means that all of the cultures of men, around the world, have God’s most basic message – preached throughout the ages – encoded within it:  Believe in Him, do good, reject evil.  Who isn’t aware that we are to be good to one another, and not be bad to one other?  Realistically who doesn’t know that, really?    Isn’t it normal… all around the world, for parents to teach their kids to be good and not be evil?   Naturally in the Competition of Righteousness, you would be at an advantage if you actually had a chance to hear the Word, but who isn’t aware of the message at its most basic level?  We will not be wronged.

aamna wrote: “Because of the existence of hell, suddenly the Quran has a massive burden to carry: it has to be sufficient in providing evidence and persuading a reader.”

Yes, but there’s also an expectation on the listener.  

aamna wrote: “It is the thing that will deter your path to hell and Allah has created it for that purpose, so it needs to be strong enough to not cause doubt.” 

There will always be doubt.  The adversary made a promise to his Lord out of arrogance, remember?  Everyone will have doubt because of this creature’s efforts.  You can expect the doubts to come, but you are crazy if you surrender to them.  Surrender to your Lord instead.  Did Allah not explain that the adversary was an avowed enemy to you and was not to be trusted?  Then why do you give in to these doubts?  Do you love building up evidence against yourself for the Last Day?

aamna wrote: “If it is confusing and doesn't provide a lot of evidence, then it wouldn't be fair simply because our 'warning' was not strong enough.”

Eternal torment isn’t a strong enough warning?  Really? 

You must be really kinky… 

aamna wrote: “Do you understand what I mean?”

I understand that I would be a fool to call the bluff of the Supreme Creator.  How could I possibly come out the winner on the other side of that gamble?  Does it make sense that I wouldn’t give Him the benefit of the doubt that what He says is true, and that He knows and I know not?  What would I stand upon as the authority to back my argument that can compete with the truth He proclaims?  The proclamations of Allah create worlds.  What does my logic do that can compete with His Word that I should have so much confidence in it?

Doubt all you wish, aamna, but make sure you meet the requirements for entry into paradise in the meantime.  In the end I guarantee you will find out the truth behind all of this anyway.  Do not gamble your soul against hell.

aamna wrote: “Hell is mentioned a lot in the Quran; it comes up in nearly every chapter and strikes fear into the reader. Obviously, it's created for the sinners and disbelievers, and has just reasons behind it. If you have a heaven, you need a hell. However, though some people deserve the cruel punishments, I don't think anyone deserves eternal punishment. Especially not in a place as cruel and extreme as hell.”

Look at it like this:  The concept of ‘time’ is part of this finite universe.  Time as we know it was birthed during everything else we know during the Big Bang.  Time is no less than the clock ticking down towards the inevitability of the death event, when it will be too late to repent and get your good deeds up.  Time is only for us inside of this realm of the Great Test.  There is no time in the other realms; the afterlife is eternal by default.  Anything that goes on over there will be forever because that is the nature of our True Life on the other side of flesh. 

God will not be listening to your screams.  His mercy was reserved for those who surrendered and for those who believed.  If you do not believe the Qur’an is what it claims to be, I suggest you surrender to it anyway and just do what it says.  Save yourself from a Fire whose fuel is men & stones.   

aamna wrote: “Now, say someone heard about Islam and decided to give it a go and they read the Quran. It's the perfection of the Quran that should prove islam to them, but what if they don't see it? Is that their fault?”

Give the Supreme Creator the benefit of the doubt that He knows and you know not, and surrender to Him by obeying. 

aamna wrote: “Allah in the Quran says many times that he himself decides on who to guide and who to cast a veil over. He leads astray whom he wills. So why should someone be punished for what Allah decided for them?”

Surrender.  Do what He commands according to the best meaning of the text, even though faith has not yet entered your heart.  Make this effort and He will step towards you and bless your heart that your faith will be strengthened.  Decide to toss the Qur’an and reject Him and He will turn His back on you in return.  You will NOT come out the winner at the end of that lopsided battle of wills. 

aamna wrote: “That last hadith annoys me - simply because menstruation is something Allah has created. His creation is perfect, so why is there a deficiency in it? He created women that way but still he will punish women in hell (which there are a majority of). Apparently, women were naturally made more stupid, evil and less religious. Then why would they be punished? No wonder there are more women in hell. It's really stupid that women were 'made' this way but will burn for it.”

In the Qur’an, God says the only thing He will judge us by is our efforts to live righteously, yet here we find a hadith that says He will judge us based on gender and other inherent weaknesses we literally have zero control over.  lol  Is this supposed to be one of those “accepted & authentic” hadith you mentioned earlier?  Give me a break, please.  This might as well have “written by ISIL” in the fine print under it.  lol

You MUST learn to be more discerning in your scholarship.  Don’t jeopardize your soul over someone else’s foolishness and deceit.  

aamna wrote: “I'm getting a bit tired now, so I'll try to brush up on a few other things about the Quran briefly. The science is a big barrier - you replied by saying that Allah creating the universe is evidence enough…”

No, you said that the Qur’an doesn’t mention any “great science discoveries,” and I pointed out that it claims that the One God created the universe by the force of His will.  That sounds pretty great to me, and just imagine if our technology reached that level of awesome. 

aamna wrote: “…but there are many things which don't seem to add up. The stories of prophets seem a bit far-fetched, like Noah (AS) and his Ark…”

What about it exactly?  Let’s explore. 

aamna wrote: “…how the ant talked to Sulaiman (AS)…”

*sniff*  The exact method used as to how he could do it is part of the unseen and has not been revealed to us, so why do you behave as if you know enough about it to even be skeptical?  In fact, we know from the text that the prophet-king also commanded the djinn, too, so how do you know that his communication with the ant wasn’t also on a spiritual level?  Nothing about the mechanics involved was shared with us; we are only asked to believe because the Lord said it happened.  As a comic book creator, I’m personally fascinated with the concepts, though none of us have any sure knowledge about the event, but I say this:  This world is full of many strange and wonderful things that shock and amaze us routinely, demonstrating how little we really know or understand. No mere human has a right to be skeptical about anything the Supreme Creator proclaimed as fact.  It is He who knows, and we who know not. 

aamna wrote: “…and how the people fell asleep in the cave for three hundred years or so.”

Similar to the immaculate conception of the Christ, Allah did this apparently just to test out our belief.  We should just surrender and move on.  It was a mini-demonstration that He will have zero problems resurrecting us all for Judgment on the Last Day.  Take heed.

aamna wrote: “I also find it hard to believe that Adam was made 60 cubits/27.4 metres tall (Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 55, Number 543).”

First of all, everything that we know of the unseen comes from God, so if the hadith make mention of information lost in distant pre-history, it should logically first be mentioned in the Qur’an.   Here we have a hadith giving a definitive height for the patriarch that is conspicuously absent in the Qur’an.  This can be safely discarded as an unauthentic hadith that has value only as an old writing of Islamic literature and a curio.  It’s worthless for the deen.

Second, it is possible that Adam WAS larger than the average man of today.  Homo sapiens are quite old as a species, and in fact, old enough for our origins to be firmly within the timeframe of the mega-fauna of the past.  In those days BIG! was the norm, for whatever reason (elephants, rhinoceroses, and hippopotamuses are the scant remnants left of a time period in which there were many, many, many more animals like that everywhere) and I see no reason as to why the First Family wouldn’t have been touched by the BIG! fever as well.  Gigantopithecus was a human-like creature of long ago of great size, although he wasn’t even close to 27 meters.  He was estimated to stand almost 10 feet tall, which is good enough certainly to qualify as a giant (that’s also close to the height the bible claims for Goliath, too).  

aamna wrote: “Evolution makes a lot more sense and has more evidence. Truly, if humans in the past were giants, we would've found skeletal remains and fossils. But we have found fossils to further prove evolution which is why I can't bring myself to believe in the Islamic creation story. If Allah wanted people to believe in Islam, why did he provide evidence against it? Why is there so much proof of evolution?” 

It sounds like you are just tossing this out there without a strong grasp on what evolution theory is really supposed to claim.  How does evolution theory disprove the existence of Adam again?  I am unclear on the particulars of your argument.  And what does the fossil record reveal that supports evolution as being real?  Tell me if you know.

aamna wrote: “Pretty obviously talking about semen, but the location is incorrect and this was a common misconception of that time. We now know that it comes from testicles, not between the backbone and the ribs.”

Interestingly, only English and French translators added the “backbone & ribs” part, while a more straight forward translation says, “(Man) was fashioned from a liquid poured out. It issued (as a result) of the conjunction of the sexual area of the man and the sexual area of the woman.”  Dr. Maurice Bucaille mentioned that the problem here is that English and French translators were trying to interpret instead of just translating, which is similar to the old Hebrew scribes interpreting their version of “day” in the original oral scripture to mean an actual 24 hour day instead of the broader, metaphorical “long period of time; age” it originally meant, because they assumed they knew better.  Sometimes education can actually make people stupider.  lol 

aamna wrote: “Okay, Allah has put the stars in the universe/lowest heaven, fair enough. But it is written in the second ayat, that Allah created the Earth before the Heavens. So, the earth was created before the stars. Which is obviously scientifically incorrect. The stars existed a long time before our planet came into existence.”

I mentioned earlier that one of the atheist’s biggest criticisms against the Qur’an is the fact that it is absent of any kind of chronology, that it is disorganized and has a scattered or fragmented mode of composition. In fact, it doesn’t even remotely try to do anything in a linear fashion, and certainly doesn’t uphold any kind of modern university rules for structure over it’s penchant for poetic turns of phrase (which are actually vital for memorization).  Because of this, it is clear that you are judging the text based on a criterion that it never, ever tried to hold itself to – like you are condemning a fish for its inability to stick to the rules of burrowing under the dirt like a mole.  

aamna wrote: “Also, there's this. It isn't in the Quran, it's just a hadith in Sahih Bukhari:
Clearly incorrect. We know that the sun doesn't go anywhere at night,  the sky only becomes dark because the earth rotates.”

And you are actually interpreting it as a scientific principle of fact instead of the metaphor and flowery language the Qur’an itself is presenting it as?  What evidence are you using that supports your claims that the Qur’an wants you to take those verses literally and at face value as scientific truths?  I’m a big student of science from my childhood and at no point ever have I made the connection that those verses were intended to be science facts.  Please tell me why you think they are supposed to be considered that way.  I genuinely find that point of view to be odd.  Does it mean you are incapable of thinking abstractly and take everything you read at its most literal interpretation, like Drax from the Guardians of the Galaxy movie?

aamna wrote: “Phew, got most of the Quran stuff out. Okay, now to the other matter: the Prophet (pbuh). He was a great man, but unfortunately, in my opinion, he wasn't the perfect example.  Firstly, and I hate to bring this up because it's so controversial, is the marriage between Aisha and the Prophet (pbuh). What do you think of this?”

For this topic I will defer to the scholar Maulana Muhammad Ali: Of a Marriagable Age: Aisha, Mother of the Faithful 

I don’t believe she was that young during the event based on Maulana’s impeccable scholarship and logic which was obviously absent among the body of believers over the years who sought to shame us all instead of thinking with their brains on this matter.  Once again, problems always come from stupid people, not from God or His messenger.  You can’t go wrong by deciding to lean in the direction of Allah knowing what He’s talking about.  Truth stands out clear from error, and only the wicked and the foolish prefer falsehood over truth.   

aamna wrote: “I don't understand why people should be killed on this earth when Allah has said that he will deal with people accordingly in the life after death. What is the need of punishing them in this life? It really doesn't make sense. Shouldn't the punishment be, once and for all, after the test? It shouldn't effect your life until the point of judgement. Shouldn't the Prophet have been patient with these people and left them to Allah? Surely, they would've gotten a bitter punishment later anyway.” 

That’s a good question, and for me, the answer lies in looking at the greater community of believers.  Just like it not being a good idea to risk jeopardizing your individual soul by surrendering to doubts, it’s also not a good idea to allow the committed criminal to sow mischief in the earth, as it often demoralizes the community and keeps people from feeling safe & secure, and at its extreme, can lead people to question their faith.  Religion civilizes us, and keeps us from acting out of our base, savage nature, but in order for it to function properly you have to obey the rules.  If we all obey the rules our civilization will thrive.  People who are rebellious just for the sake of rebellion or greed need to be punished to discourage the behavior in others, or the entire community will be threatened by anarchy.  Remember one of the more advanced lessons of the Qur’an is how to create a sustaining believing community.  You can’t have a functional civilization without justice.  The dedicated criminal, like the poor, will always be among us, and they MUST be checked. 

aamna wrote: “Also, one more question: Allah created man in the best form as said in (95:4), so why is circumcision necessary and encouraged by the Prophets?”  

Another good question.  The answer to this one may be lost in time, assuming humans ever even knew it.  If they did, the doctors of the law from among the children of Israel probably did, but I doubt any of them would know the truth of the matter today.  Right now they just follow it because of tradition.  It was during the time of Abraham I believe, when it was first established as a ritual, and was commanded to be the official mark of the descendants of Abraham.  Today we submit ourselves to the ritual to show ourselves approved in this regard; to demonstrate our commitment to the covenant between us and the One God:  we promise to believe in Him, do good, & reject evil, and raise our children to do likewise, and in return He will gift us with the eternal reward.  Outside of that, I can’t pretend to know the significance of the actual surgery itself.

ammna - MRasheed wrote: “Why aren't you giving the Omniscient Lord of all the worlds the benefit of the doubt that He knows and you know not, and that any deficiency you think you see is actually the fault of your own limited understanding?”

Because Allah knows his creation better than anyone. He understands us humans and he sent down this book with the Islamic message. He knows what we're like, how we think, how to make us feel certain ways; he's the most understanding and the most intelligent. He knows about my 'limited understanding' and he, of everyone and everything in existence, should certainly know how to write a book which caters to our 'limited understanding' and successfully communicates with us. Those deficiencies that I see due to my own self - why didn't he cater to my limited understanding? Why didn't he know that I would struggle to believe and make it more believable to me? He knows about me more than I know about myself; so why couldn't this Omniscient God write a book that couldn't be faulted by my limited understanding? There shouldn't be anydeficiencies. If this book and religion was perfect, once you read the Quran with a open heart and no prejudices, there wouldn't be any reason to not follow it. Of course, people from the outside of the religion will say ignorant things because they don't understand it properly; but for people who have read it, truly listened to it, there wouldn't be a reason to turn away unless Allah hadn't created the perfect book.

MRasheed wrote: “Truth is OFTEN harsh.  Truth is OFTEN uncomfortable.”

Yes, but the Quran is the truth and claims to be perfect. Why would perfection be harsh and uncomfortable?

MRasheed wrote: “Personally I consider Allah's greatest miracle to be the creation of this universe.  The Quran is certainly a miracle, but between sending 22 years worth of telegram correspondence to Muhammad (pbuh) through Gabriel (copy/pasted from a divine book that had already been written mind), versus creating a universe from scratch, which one was probably the most difficult?”

True, but I said muslims for a reason. The creation of the universe by Allah is the greatest miracle, but not just for Islam. That miracle could be useful for Christianity, Judaism and many monotheistic religions. For Islam specifically, the Quran is it's greatest miracle.

MRasheed wrote: “Muhammad was sent to the Arabs”

I took you for a very intelligent person, but this is by far the most ignorant thing you've written. Wait, no this is:

MRasheed wrote: “That is why all of the prophets are to be treated the same; none is to be uplifted above any other per command of Allah Himself.  They all had the exact same job.”

It's hilarious - I'm an exmuslim but this still greatly offends me. Muhammad was not the same as every other Prophet. His job was not the same.
That is the core of Islam. I'm absolutely shocked. You want proof of his superiority? Read the First Kalima. The main line of Islam. "I believe there is no God but Allah and Muhammad (pbuh) is his servant and messenger." Why wasn't Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Musa, Isa, etc. mentioned? Why was Muhammad (pbuh) the only one to be stated? Allah loved Muhammad and cherished him above every creation. Obviously, Allah will always be better than anything or anyone but Muhammad (pbuh) has a very high rank in Islam. On the Day of Judgement, the people will go to Adam for help and he'll turn them down, then they'll go to Noah, and he'll also turn away, until after a chain of prophets, they reach Muhammad (pbuh) and he will agree to intercede for them. (Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 3). Why would Allah only accept his intercession among all the Prophets? Because Allah loved Muhammad (pbuh).

He wasn't just sent to the Arabs. I don't know where you've gotten such a misconception from. Did you read the quranic verses and hadith I MRasheed wrote: “d on it? In case you didn't see it: "Say: O humanity! Truly, I am the Messenger of God to you all of Him to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. There is no god but He. He gives life and He causes to die. So believe in God and His Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, who believes in God and His words and follow him so that perhaps you will be truly guided." This is in the Quran (7:158)

Now I understand - maybe that's why you think I'm stupid to turn away from Islam. You probably think 'why would you turn away from your creator?' I believe in the Creator fully but I don't agree with the principles of Islam. I disagree with the fact that Muhammad was sent to all of mankind, to be an example for everyone to follow. But it's in the Quran, so I'm going against Islam. I disagree with what he did - I don't think that would be okay to do in today's society. It wouldn't be right.

MRasheed wrote: “Consequently, it should stand to reason, that the believing community should have had the idea to compile a record of the deeds & sayings of Muhammad WAAAAYYYY before the two centuries after his death that the hadith started to be compiled in.”

That time was used to gather all the information, compile it, check each MRasheed wrote: “'s individual authenticity, confirm them, etc. It was needed to be sure that it was correct.

MRasheed wrote: “I can't take that seriously, aamna.  If it were true, then he would bear witness over all of us when he returned on the Day of Judgment, and obviously that is ridiculous.  Those of us who lived outside of the Era of the Prophets will miss out on being witnessed in Court  by the messengers.  For example, on the Day of Judgment when Abu Bakr stands before his Lord to be judged, he will indeed see the prophet Muhammad.  The prophet will be asked if Abu Bakr heard the message, and if he accepted it or not.  Likewise, Abu Lahab will also see his nephew on Judgment Day, and to his terror, will hear the same questions asked.  By contrast, you and I will not see the prophet during our Day in Court.”

Is this your ideology? You think a Prophet needs to be there in order to confirm something? I thought we agreed that Allah sees everything, hears everything, and is the all-aware. Allah judges someone alone and he knows exactly what happened. There isn't any need for confirmation. And if this is what you've been believing all this time; I'm really interested to hear your opinion on why we don't have a Prophet today. Just because there isn't a prophet now, doesn't mean Allah fails to test us and will judge us without their help.

MRasheed wrote: “He was the example for his time; other prophets were the examples of their times.”

Okay, so this is what we're getting stuck on repeatedly. This is one of the main reasons why I left Islam because even though the Quran said he was the example for all time, I didn't agree. It's strange that you don't believe in that either.

MRasheed wrote: “Muhammad was merely the last of them.”

Haha, I am not doing this again. It just hurts me when you say such things. I used to dearly love the Prophet and had such respect for him - I mean I still do, just not as the perfect example of all mankind. But truly he wasn't the 'mere' last of them. He held significance. Allah saved him until the end because he was the best of them all. Ever heard of best for last?

MRasheed wrote: “But at its most basic level; believe in the One God, do good, avoid evil, repent when you mess up; it is indeed sufficient to enable the simplest believer to attain the ultimate reward.”

I don't understand. That's what I do. I believe in One God. I do good. I avoid evil. When I was a muslim, it was the little things that made me want to leave. 'You're going to hell for listening to music, not wearing a jalbab, drawing living things, etc.' What about them? There are such large threats for little actions. Islam seems basic but it's anyone but basic.

MRasheed wrote: “It was part of the strategy, and in that society it WAS the men doing the leading and instructing, who held all the power.”

It was part of the strategy for their century. Not ours. Therefore it isn't infinitely perfect and not the work of God.

MRasheed wrote: “You know that the Quran is presented from the beginning as the universal message, so why are you acting like the earth is populated with Arabs?  lol    The earth is not populated with Arabs from the 7th century,”

Are you kidding? That's exactly what the Quran's doing. It speaks as if the whole world IS populated with Arabs from the seventh century. Again, simply making it a product of it's time.

MRasheed wrote: “the message was not JUST for them”

Yet it clearly addresses them throughout most of the book. It only talks about their problems, their issues, their situations. What about the future? Couldn't Allah have put something in about the future? Surely, he knew about the future. Then why didn't he add something to provide evidence for the confused people?

MRasheed wrote: “The ONLY way your mansion will have rivers of honey-milk flowing under it, and rice & lamb meals everyday, is if you happen to be really, REALLY into that stuff.”

Why mention it in so much detail then? Why didn't Allah write 'it's what you want it to be' rather than 'rivers, castle, virgins, fruits, etc'? Couldn't he leave it to imagination? It would've been more exciting that way.

MRasheed wrote: “His mercy was reserved for those who surrendered and for those who believed."

Then surely he can't be the most Merciful. Even I forgive my enemies. If someone killed my whole family, of course, I'd want punishment for them  but there comes an extent to where you want it to stop. Nobody deserves eternal punishment, as I said.

MRasheed wrote: “Make this effort and He will step towards you and bless your heart that your faith will be strengthened.”

I have. I read the Quran again and again, wishing for it to suddenly be different. I've prayed at night, in tears, fearing the afterlife and asking for him to help me and return. But he doesn't help. My doubts never ceased. Nothing improved. I went to ask him for his his help, but he never responded or made my heart less 'veiled' as he says. I'm not kidding when I say I gave it everything. That was now quite a while ago and I don't need false belief again.

MRasheed wrote: “Is this supposed to be one of those 'accepted & authentic' hadith you mentioned earlier?  Give me a break, please.”

You don't believe in hadith? This is from the most authentic book in Islam after the Quran. Sahih Bukhari. If you really dismiss them, then either you're acting ignorant on purpose or you disagree with all hadith.

MRasheed wrote: “No, you said that the Quran doesn't mention any great science discoveries, and I pointed out that it claims that the One God created the universe by the force of His will.  That sounds pretty great to me”

That isn't a scientific discovery. It's your belief. Don't get confused between the two.

MRasheed wrote: “No mere human has a right to be skeptical about anything the Supreme Creator proclaimed as fact”

They do when he's provided no evidence.

MRasheed wrote: “This can be safely discarded as an unauthentic hadith”

I'm sorry but you really can't just brush it under the carpet. Once again, this Sahih Bukhari thing - you're really just avoiding the other half of Islam.

MRasheed wrote: “And what does the fossil record reveal that supports evolution as being real?”

Lucy, Kabwe, Amud, Ndutu, etc.

MRasheed wrote: “Dr. Maurice Bucaille mentioned that the problem here is that English and French translators were trying to interpret instead of just translating”

See, this is what apologists say. When the Quran seems at fault for being taken literally, suddenly the translator made a mistake and it should've been metaphorical. But when it's taken metaphorically, it should be taken literally. Such an ambiguous book. Yet it's supposed to be clear.

MRasheed wrote: “I mentioned earlier that one of the atheist's biggest criticisms against the Quran is the fact that it is absent of any kind of chronology, that it is disorganized and has a scattered or fragmented mode of composition”

That wasn't even the point. I have no problem with the order. Read what I wrote. It wasn't about the placement in the Quran - I was just talking about how they contradict science.

MRasheed wrote: “And you are actually interpreting it as a scientific principle of fact instead of the metaphor and flowery language the Quran itself is presenting it as?”

Oh no, my apologies. Of course, it's a metaphor when the science is wrong. But when it's seemingly scientifically correct, all the Muslims are screaming: "SCIENTIFIC MIRACLE." Thought it wasn't a book of science?

MRasheed wrote: “Outside of that, I can't pretend to know the significance of the actual surgery itself.”

All it is is to remove the skin because it's cleaner that way - since urine and other filth can get caught in the skin. So it's preferable. I still don't understand why though when Allah's creation is perfect.

Muhammad Rasheed - aamna wrote: “Because Allah knows his creation better than anyone. He understands us humans and he sent down this book with the Islamic message. He knows what we're like, how we think, how to make us feel certain ways; he's the most understanding and the most intelligent. He knows about my 'limited understanding' and he, of everyone and everything in existence, should certainly know how to write a book which caters to our 'limited understanding' and successfully communicates with us.”

And He did.

aamna wrote: “Those deficiencies that I see due to my own self - why didn't he cater to my limited understanding? “

He did.

aamna wrote: “Why didn't he know that I would struggle to believe and make it more believable to me? He knows about me more than I know about myself; so why couldn't this Omniscient God write a book that couldn't be faulted by my limited understanding? “

The book is not faulted.  It is you who are being prideful and stubborn.

aamna wrote: “There shouldn't be any deficiencies. “

There are no deficiencies.  

aamna wrote: “If this book and religion was perfect, once you read the Quran with a open heart and no prejudices, there wouldn't be any reason to not follow it. “

Thus the over a billion Muslims on earth today.

aamna wrote: “Of course, people from the outside of the religion will say ignorant things because they don't understand it properly; “

People from the inside do so as well.  Such is the nature of mere men.

aamna wrote: “…but for people who have read it, truly listened to it, there wouldn't be a reason to turn away unless Allah hadn't created the perfect book. “

Your logic is faulty.  People turn away from truth all the time over a variety of reasons they justify in their own minds.  The fault is in the people thinking they know better than God.  It is a trait of arrogance and pride.

aamna wrote: “Yes, but the Quran is the truth and claims to be perfect. Why would perfection be harsh and uncomfortable? “

Because mankind doesn’t like being told the truth about themselves, their actions, their deeply held traditions.  They don’t like being told that the foul things that give them pleasure displease Allah, and they don’t like being commanded outside of their comfort zones.  They don't like being bluntly told about inherent weaknesses, especially in an era when their strengths are celebrated to make up for past societal wrongs.  They also don’t like finding out they aren’t the most intelligent creatures in existence, and that they must regularly and routinely bow down to the One who is.

aamna wrote: “True, but I said muslims for a reason. The creation of the universe by Allah is the greatest miracle, but not just for Islam. That miracle could be useful for Christianity, Judaism and many monotheistic religions. For Islam specifically, the Quran is it's greatest miracle. “

The Qur’an wouldn’t be of much use to us if there was no universe, aamna.

aamna wrote: “I took you for a very intelligent person, but this is by far the most ignorant thing you've written. “

lol  You are perhaps familiar with some other people the prophet preached to?  Did he ever even leave Arabia during the 20+ years of his prophethood?  The truth of the matter is this:  The prophet Muhammad instructed his own people in scripture and wisdom so that once he was gone, they would spread it around the earth.  He taught the Arabs the universal message.  The Arabs gave it to the rest of us.  

aamna wrote: “It's hilarious - I'm an exmuslim but this still greatly offends me. “

Imagine the levels of my offense at this quasi-pagan reverence towards the messenger I keep encountering in my fellow believers.  There is no wonder that the Golden Age of Islam is long behind us.  Have the Pauline Christians taught us nothing then?  I predict that The Day of Noise & Clamor will be upon us when the last Muslim hold-out decides to fully worship Muhammad as a deity.  Clearly, to my complete disgust, that is the direction the Muslim world is heading in.  It is at that time when the horn of Gabriel will blow, and the full wrath of Allah will come down upon us all.  

aamna wrote: “Muhammad was not the same as every other Prophet. His job was not the same.  That is the core of Islam. I'm absolutely shocked. “

Imagine my own shock when I discovered that the body of Muslims failed to uphold their Qur’an, and instead fed like pigs upon obviously fraudulent hadith and lacked discernment.  It is disgraceful.  Here:

2:285
The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."
           
3:84
Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

4:152
To those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of the messengers, we shall soon give their (due) rewards: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

And here’s the clearly authentic hadith demonstrating the messenger of Allah echoing what his Lord said:

The Prophet said: My position in relation to the other prophets is like this: A man built a house, completing it and adorning it well except for a place of one brick. When the people entered the house, they marvelled at its beauty and said, But for the place of this one brick (how much more splendid the house will be) (Bukhari, kitab al-manaqib, bab khatim al-nabiyyin; Muslim, kitab al-fada'il, bab khatam al-nabiyyin; see also Tirmidhi, kitab al-manaqib, bab fadl al-nabi and kitab al-adab, bab al-amthal; Musnad Abu Da`ud Tayalisi, murwiyyat Jabir bin ‘Abd Allah; and Musnad Ahmad, murwiyyat Ubayy bin Ka'b, Abu Sa'id Khudri and Abu Hurayrahh).

It is clear we will never agree on this point, despite this clear evidence presented to you.  The Muslims of today (and former Muslims or whatever) have an apparent disdain for the Word of God.  The adversary and his imps have been busy indeed.  Bear witness at least that I, Muhammad Rasheed, am a Muslim.  I believe in all the prophets, and as my Lord has commanded, make no distinction between any of them.  Witness thus.

aamna wrote: “You want proof of his superiority? Read the First Kalima. The main line of Islam. ‘I believe there is no God but Allah and Muhammad (pbuh) is his servant and messenger.’ Why wasn't Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Musa, Isa, etc. mentioned? Why was Muhammad (pbuh) the only one to be stated? Allah loved Muhammad and cherished him above every creation. “

lol  It says that because of what it implies about Muhammad, which is very different from what you somehow think.  It affirms Muhammad because it legitimizes his mission and the Qur’an that was revealed through him.  It's only saying that if Muhammad is the servant and messenger of Allah, then it also means that the Qur’an is exactly what it claims to be, and as it says, the canon of sacred scripture is now complete.  Period.  We already know that Adam thru Jesus were the servants of God, but saying that this Arabic prophet was also, confirms the completion of the message.

aamna wrote: “Obviously, Allah will always be better than anything or anyone…”

It’s obvious to ME at least.

aamna wrote: “…but…”

“But?!”   BUT??????

aamna wrote: “…Muhammad (pbuh) has a very high rank in Islam. “

Yes.  The exact same high rank that the rest of his brotherhood had:  Messenger of Allah.

aamna wrote: “On the Day of Judgement, the people will go to Adam for help and he'll turn them down, then they'll go to Noah, and he'll also turn away, until after a chain of prophets, they reach Muhammad (pbuh) and he will agree to intercede for them. (Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 3). Why would Allah only accept his intercession among all the Prophets? Because Allah loved Muhammad (pbuh). “

Because this is obviously a false hadith in that it conflicts with the Qur’an.  Is there any more superior criterion that would render a hadith false?  If it isn’t supported by Allah, it is not from the messenger.  Some asshat made it up to glorify himself, or to further some political agenda.  It doesn’t matter which.  In any event it isn’t supported by God and is worthless as a guide to mankind.

aamna wrote: “He wasn't just sent to the Arabs. I don't know where you've gotten such a misconception from. “

In his lifetime did he ever meet an Eskimo?  Well, okay then.  

aamna wrote: “Did you read the quranic verses and hadith I quoted on it? In case you didn't see it: "Say: O humanity! Truly, I am the Messenger of God to you all…”

And it’s true.  He is the messenger of God.  His message is for everybody, and he was sent to the Arabs to instruct them in it so they could instruct you.   Note that as soon as the Arab tribes were united across the peninsula under the banner of Al-Islam, he elected to leave this earth and claim his Reward.  His entire mission on earth was to the Arabs themselves.  

aamna wrote: “Now I understand - maybe that's why you think I'm stupid to turn away from Islam. “

Two words:  1.) Paradise.  2.) Hell.   Enjoy your hellfire, aamna.  That’ll just be more rivers of honey-milk for me.

aamna wrote: “You probably think 'why would you turn away from your creator?' I believe in the Creator fully but I don't agree with the principles of Islam. I disagree with the fact that Muhammad was sent to all of mankind, to be an example for everyone to follow. “

That would make you a transgressor of faith. 

aamna wrote: “But it's in the Quran, so I'm going against Islam. I disagree with what he did - I don't think that would be okay to do in today's society. It wouldn't be right. “

Do you still believe the Aisha thing despite what Maulana uncovered in the record?   

aamna wrote: “That time was used to gather all the information, compile it, check each quote's individual authenticity, confirm them, etc. It was needed to be sure that it was correct. “

Nah.  Most of that time was spent inventing fake hadith, until some people eventually got the bright idea to start collecting them definitively for posterity before the inventing fake hadith craze got too out of hand.

aamna wrote: “Is this your ideology? You think a Prophet needs to be there in order to confirm something? “

5:109, 116-120
One day will Allah gather the messengers together, and ask: "What was the response ye received (from men to your teaching)?" They will say: "We have no knowledge: it is Thou Who knowest in full all that is hidden."

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

"If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."

Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah: That is the great salvation, (the fulfilment of all desires).

To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who hath power over all things. 

The Christ will be a sign on the Last Day as God said; that is the nature of the sign, to bear witness against the children of Israel, and witness for his companions.  And if he has to do it, then they ALL have to it, as God said in the verse quoted above.

aamna wrote: “I thought we agreed that Allah sees everything, hears everything, and is the all-aware. Allah judges someone alone and he knows exactly what happened. There isn't any need for confirmation. “

God has His own reasons for doing what He does.  He is self-sufficient and needs nothing.  Mankind is the one in need, and the prophets’ presence as a witness is for them.  The Day of Judgment will be a very formal affair, and the angel tasked to record all of your bad deeds will be your prosecuting attorney.  Let me assure you he will not be nice, and will probably be nit-picky beyond all reason.

aamna wrote: “And if this is what you've been believing all this time; I'm really interested to hear your opinion on why we don't have a Prophet today. “

The purpose of the prophets was to receive and pass on the message.  The message is now complete; the canon of revealed scripture is closed.  There is no longer a need for the prophets.  If the course that the body of believers is on continues in its current trajectory, and eventually the Muslims step beyond all bounds and worship their messenger like the Christians before them, it’ll probably be time to wrap up the whole she-bang, and the Great Test will be over. 

aamna wrote: “Just because there isn't a prophet now, doesn't mean Allah fails to test us and will judge us without their help. “

Bearing witness on Judgment Day, although important, isn’t their primary function. 

aamna wrote: “Okay, so this is what we're getting stuck on repeatedly. This is one of the main reasons why I left Islam because even though the Quran said he was the example for all time, I didn't agree. It's strange that you don't believe in that either. “

It seems like you are confusing a few concepts together.  To be clear:

1.)  Muhammad is the messenger of Allah whose message was for all of mankind
2.)  Muhammad’s example of how to walk out the Qur’an in your life is to be followed by all those who recognize the Qur’an as true
3.)  Muhammad himself, personally, only came to instruct the Arabs during his lifetime.

These are three very separate items.  You were confused.  I apologize for not making myself clear earlier.

aamna wrote: “Haha, I am not doing this again. It just hurts me when you say such things. I used to dearly love the Prophet and had such respect for him - I mean I still do, just not as the perfect example of all mankind. But truly he wasn't the 'mere' last of them. He held significance. Allah saved him until the end because he was the best of them all. Ever heard of best for last? “

Ugh.  Please stop.  He was the last of them because of the prophecy in Deuteronomy.  Jesus was the end cap to the Hebrew line of messengers, sealed up by having him conceived from scratch in his mother’s womb to sever the genetic line of prophethood in that family.  Muhammad was the last prophet, anointed from the line of Ishmael, who conspicuously wasn’t allowed to have any sons, so that family too would not continue to birth prophets.  Muhammad didn’t do anything any different than the prophets before him in the mission: he received the revelation, and instructed his people in scripture and wisdom.  He prophesized the coming of a Terrible Day, and when that Day arrives, will bear witness.  These are the terms of the prophethood that they all follow.

aamna wrote: “I don't understand. That's what I do. I believe in One God. I do good. I avoid evil. “

Do you honestly think you are going to stand before God, say that you reject His final message and His prophet after having believed, in a perfect performance of a transgressor of faith, and still win through to paradise? 

Good luck.

aamna wrote: “When I was a muslim, it was the little things that made me want to leave. 'You're going to hell for listening to music…”

Is that supposed to be Islam?  According to whom?

aamna wrote: “…not wearing a jalbab…”

Show me in the Qur’an where God said that if you don’t wear it you won’t enter paradise.

aamna wrote: “…drawing living things…”

Show me in the Qur’an where God said that if you draw them you won’t enter paradise, and I promise to take it seriously.

aamna wrote: “…etc.' What about them? There are such large threats for little actions. Islam seems basic but it's anyone but basic. “

Islam is quite basic.  God said one thing, yet these other people are saying other things… so much like what the children of Israel used to do to themselves.  God said that all kinds of things were lawful to them, other than some few things He restricted, but then they started creating fake restrictions onto themselves for nothing!  So the modern day Muslims are not only slowly beginning to worship their messenger like the Pauline Christians before them, but they're also creating fake rules and falsely subscribing them to Allah, mimicking the children of Israel.  Eventually all three of the People of the Book will be indistinguishable one from the other, and NOT in a good way. 

Also, it has not been lost on me that, despite your willingness to risk hell itself by chucking the whole thing, you are still programmed to defend these false doctrines that the adversary is so cleverly implanting within my religion. 

aamna wrote: “It was part of the strategy for their century. Not ours. Therefore it isn't infinitely perfect and not the work of God. “

That makes no sense.  If they didn’t use that strategy to get it going in the first place, we wouldn’t have it today. 

aamna wrote: “Are you kidding? That's exactly what the Quran's doing. It speaks as if the whole world IS populated with Arabs from the seventh century. Again, simply making it a product of it's time. “

Common sense, reason, logic dictate that since we know the message is universal, it was explained to the Arabs so they would take ownership of it, master it, and learn how to deliver it to the non-Arab.  As the official guardians and scribes, they needed to first master it according to their own understanding and language.  

aamna wrote: “Yet it clearly addresses them throughout most of the book. “

Of course it does.  You are making an issue out of a non-issue.

aamna wrote: “It only talks about their problems, their issues, their situations. What about the future? Couldn't Allah have put something in about the future? Surely, he knew about the future. Then why didn't he add something to provide evidence for the confused people? “

Because it is clear that the “confused people” deserve hellfire for their fake “confusion.”  Billions have no issue with understanding the fastest growing of the World Religions, yet these “confused people” stubbornly reject the message based off arguments that insultingly make no sense whatsoever.  I am not fooled.   

aamna wrote: “Why mention it in so much detail then? “

Would a semi-civilized, backwards, prideful, desert tribesman take complete ownership of it the way he did and spread it around the globe with that level of enthusiasm if the descriptions were vague?  You’ve decided to be stubbornly offended by these descriptions despite the clear success of the message which proved Allah knew what He was doing all along, and this because you are holding onto an ideology that you consider more important than the Qur’an.

This will be your undoing.

aamna wrote: “Why didn't Allah write 'it's what you want it to be' rather than 'rivers, castle, virgins, fruits, etc'? Couldn't he leave it to imagination? It would've been more exciting that way. “

It is that way.  Do you think the Muslims in China, or other ethnic groups in Texas, are actually looking forward to living like Arabs in paradise?  You seem to have completely abandoned your intellect on this point.

aamna wrote: “Then surely he can't be the most Merciful. “

Ridiculous.  He told you to surrender and just follow His commands if you do not have faith in your heart and you will still win through to paradise; do this and the record of your deeds will still get you in.  His mercy will be on you, and He will not hold it against you that you first didn’t truly believe.    That is the ULTIMATE in mercy.  But if you stubbornly, arrogantly, and pridefully refuse to do even THAT, then fill your belly with hellfire and enjoy.  You’ve earned it.

aamna wrote: “Even I forgive my enemies. If someone killed my whole family, of course, I'd want punishment for them  but there comes an extent to where you want it to stop. Nobody deserves eternal punishment, as I said. “

Stubbornly refusing to do the bare minimum of what the being who gave you life commanded of you ABSOLUTELY deserves eternal punishment because that is precisely what you begged for in this behavior. 

aamna wrote: “I have. “

No, you have not.  Or you would be doing it NOW.

aamna wrote: “I read the Quran again and again…”

And you never, ever saw the verses where God said we are not to distinguish between the prophets, huh?  Curious.

aamna wrote: “…wishing for it to suddenly be different. I'm not kidding when I say I gave it everything. “

lol  You don’t know what “everything” means, aamna.  SURRENDER TO ALLAH AND DO AS HE COMMANDS UNTIL THE DAY YOU DIE.  Then you will win your purple-winged unicorn that craps chocolate or whatever.

aamna wrote: “You don't believe in hadith? “

That was an amazing leap.  You should put forth that same effort in your surrender to God…

aamna wrote: “This is from the most authentic book in Islam after the Quran. Sahih Bukhari. If you really dismiss them, then either you're acting ignorant on purpose or you disagree with all hadith. “

I recognize as authentic all hadith that are backed up by the Qur’an.  Hadith that contradict the Qur’an are rubbish, and it doesn’t matter whose names they bear.

aamna wrote: “That isn't a scientific discovery. It's your belief. Don't get confused between the two. “

The facts of the expanding universe feature “the metric expansion of space – which is the increase of the distance between two distant parts of the universe with time. It is an intrinsic expansion whereby the scale of space itself changes. This is different from other examples of expansions and explosions in that, as far as observations can ascertain, it is a property of the entirety of the universe rather than a phenomenon that can be contained and observed from the outside. Metric expansion is a key feature of Big Bang cosmology, is modeled mathematically with the FLRW metric, and is a generic property of the universe we inhabit. Technically, the metric expansion of space is a feature of many solutions to the Einstein field equations of general relativity, and distance is measured using the Lorentz interval. This explains observations which indicate that galaxies that are more distant from us are receding faster than galaxies that are closer to us (Hubble's law).”

These facts support the theory that the universe had a beginning, sprang into existence at a point in the distant past. The world religions have always said that the universe was created at a point in the distant past. In fact, Nobel prize winning physicist (and co-discoverer of the cosmic microwave background radiation) Arno Penzias once said that “The best data we have concerning the Big Bang, are exactly what I would have predicted if I had nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, and the bible as a whole.”

The Qur’an, of course, echoes the same origin of the universe concepts of the bible.

aamna wrote: “They do when he's provided no evidence."

You’re confused again.  God doesn’t provide evidence, that’s your job.  God provides the Truth and you use your intellect that He gave you to discover the facts in creation that support that truth.  As in the example above.  God provided us the truth of the origins of the universe, and the scientists went out to find the evidence that supported it.  What are YOU doing?  Sitting on the couch, eating snacks, watching tv, while waiting for God to bring you evidence on a golden tray?  

aamna wrote: “I'm sorry but you really can't just brush it under the carpet."

I didn’t brush it under the carpet, I threw it in the garbage. 

aamna wrote: “Once again, this Sahih Bukhari thing - you're really just avoiding the other half of Islam. “

I’m fascinated at your defense of clear nonsense that is masquerading as the deen, all while you risk flinging yourself into the Pit because of your inability to reconcile this same nonsense.  lol

aamna wrote: “Lucy, Kabwe, Amud, Ndutu, etc."

Do you realize that by deciding to fling the names of random trays full of old bones at me as your answer to my question, you only reinforce the original impression you gave -- that you didn’t know anything at all about evolution’s claims?  Well, it is so.  Please try harder.

aamna wrote: “See, this is what apologists say. When the Quran seems at fault for being taken literally, suddenly the translator made a mistake and it should've been metaphorical. But when it's taken metaphorically, it should be taken literally. Such an ambiguous book. Yet it's supposed to be clear. “

Is this your official rebuttal?  So when I point out that the text translated straightforward is very clear, yet when “translated” by a very specific group of “scholars” it is inaccurate and confusing, yet you’re really going to respond by completely sidestepping the clear evidence that you were calling for just a few posts up in favor of your preferred ideological stance?  smh

aamna wrote: “That wasn't even the point. I have no problem with the order. “

No, your complaint was 100% about the order of the items given. 

aamna wrote: “Read what I wrote."

I have.  That’s why I disagree with you in every possible way. 

aamna wrote: “It wasn't about the quote's placement in the Quran - I was just talking about how they contradict science."

Your specific complaint was about the order of the items mentioned in the verse.  Now you are backtracking and weaseling into some other thing.  I believe this would be a “moving the goal post fallacy.”  smh

aamna wrote: “Oh no, my apologies. Of course, it's a metaphor when the science is wrong. “

Interesting how you’re having problems providing your proof that the verses were supposed to be presented as factual science.  Need more time then?  I’ll wait.

aamna wrote: “But when it's seemingly scientifically correct, all the Muslims are screaming: ‘SCIENTIFIC MIRACLE.’ Thought it wasn't a book of science? “

I don’t recall ever saying it was a “book of science.”  It’s a book of instructing you in correct behaviors so you can enter heaven.  Any science tidbits it drops along the way are just extras.  Like the origins of the universe thing. 

aamna wrote: “All it is is to remove the skin because it's cleaner that way - since urine and other filth can get caught in the skin. So it's preferable. “

That doesn’t make any sense considering all he has to do is slide the skin back off of it and clean it.  It takes more effort to lift up the scrotum sack.  

aamna wrote: “I still don't understand why though when Allah's creation is perfect. “

Who said that it demonstrates an imperfect creation?  Allah is the Best of Planners.  He knew He was going to fashion it that way before the Big Bang started billions of years before.  Did it ever occur to you that He may have designed it that way PRECISELY as the point of that ritual? 

Why not?

See Also:
Are Muslims Allowed to Draw?

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