Stephanie Radakovich - can we change "The Poor" to "Those Who Are Struggling" ?
Jeremy Johnson - How about "victims of those who control the wealth"?
Rick Riley - You can fancy it up and call it whatever you want. That wont change the thing.
Colleen Kelly - I call it surviving. When it's done well, it can lead to thriving.
Stephanie Radakovich - yeah. For the past year, on paper, I've technically been a member of The Poor. Talk about motivation...
Emmett Sims - Currency-challenged?
Muhammad Rasheed - Stephanie Radakovich wrote: "can we change "The Poor" to "Those Who Are Struggling?"
Only if it will magically make them not poor.
Anthony Atkielski - Changing names accomplishes nothing.
Colleen Kelly - However, a person's attitude changes everything. ;0)
Muhammad Rasheed - Proclaiming to the world that you are struggling will give you a good attitude?
Rick Riley - Currency-challenged is perfect! And funny! Heck, I may be poor forever ( but I'm hoping to get rich this year with an amazing invention. Trust me, you'll want one, maybe two) but I refuse to be someone's 'victim' just because they are obscenely rich. I think everyone, EVERYONE should be obscenely rich.
Muhammad Rasheed - (how much is "obscenely rich" in dollars exactly?)
Muhammad Rasheed - ME FIRST!!!!
Rick Riley - Rich? Or on the list for my amazing invention?
Muhammad Rasheed - Rich, special fool!! I don't even know what you invented!
Rick Riley - no one does yet, but soon. you'll want one I think obscenely rich would be when you make money faster than you can count it. That'll work for me.
Muhammad Rasheed - So how much is that a month really? Estimated?
Emmett Sims - Being what we consider "poor" in the United States would be considered affluent in most other countries of the world. Our so called poor have homes to live in, TV's, cars, cell phones, computers and food to eat, and access to health care. The poor of the world would love to have a tenth of what our poor have. Should we turn our backs on our poor? Of course not! But lets put things in perspective, being poor in America isn't all that bad when you look at the rest of the world. So perhaps we should be thankful for what we have since things could always be worse.
Rick Riley - Money
It's a gas
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash
New car, caviar, four star daydream
Think I'll buy me a football team
Rick Riley - Yeah, Poor aint so bad once you get a glimpse of Destitute
Colleen Kelly - Exactly Emmett Sims! So very well said!
Colleen Kelly - Muhammad Rasheed, who do you suppose will thrive? The Debbie Downer who perpetually boo-hoos "I'm poor" and makes no life changes or the person who is motivated and ambitious, fueled by a positive attitude despite being faced with adversity?
Anthony Atkielski - The richest people in the world don't feel guilty because they have a million times more than you have. Why should you feel guilty because some people in the world have less than you? Becoming poor won't make those poorer people richer, it will just make richer people richer. And contrary to what one might think, most of the world is not starving. The main reason more people aren't more affluent is overpopulation. The main reason you are not more affluent is that the current trend in the developed world is towards concentration of all wealth into the hands of just a few people, much like things were 150 years ago.
Emmett Sims - I had the opportunity to see shanty towns in Cape Town and admittedly i had preconceived notions of Africa being "Third World" prior to my visit but upon reflection what i took away from my time spent there astounded me and gave me perspective...take a good look at the kids in this pic... i don't believe they consider themselves "poor".
Cynthia McGarvie - I find it interesting how quickly people respond to a nuanced situation with sweeping generalizations.
Emmett Sims - It would take only 1 percent of GDP, or a fourth of what we spend on defense every year, to lift every American below the poverty line up above it. It might be helpful to put the $175.3 billion magic number in perspective. In 2012, this number was just one-fourth of the $700 billion the federal government spent on the military. When you start hunting through the submerged spending we do through the tax code, it takes you no time to find enough tax expenditures geared toward the affluent to get to that number as well. The utterly ridiculous tax expenditures directed toward the disproportionately affluent class of people called homeowners—mortgage interest deduction, property tax deduction, exclusion of capital gains on residences—by themselves sum to $115.3 billion in 2012. Throw in the $117.3 billion in tax expenditures used to subsidize employer-based health care (also a disproportionate sop to the rich), and you’ve already eclipsed the magic number. (excerpted from http://prospect.org/.../how-much-money-would-it-take... )
Muhammad Rasheed - Colleen Kelly wrote: "Muhammad Rasheed, who do you suppose will thrive? The Debbie Downer who perpetually boo-hoos "I'm poor" and makes no life changes or the person who is motivated and ambitious, fueled by a positive attitude despite being faced with adversity?"
I guess I'm still trying to figure out how using interchangeably synonymous terms is giving me a positive attitude.
How about if I just work towards achieving the better life and don't associate myself with the lower classes at all?
Muhammad Rasheed - "I AM a winner! I AM successful!"
Muhammad Rasheed - Like that.
Muhammad Rasheed - That switching out poor for struggling is too... Sesame Street baby games to me. That's probably why it's falling on me that way, Colleen.
Cynthia McGarvie - The economic game is set up to protect those who have been blessed by birth with wealth. There are many ways this is done: taxation perks in the form of loopholes that only the wealthy qualify for, laws that benefit corporations over private citizens, offshore tax havens, and this list right here:
Anthony Atkielski - The ballot box changed that situation before, and it can change it again. But people have to vote, and they have to expend at least a little bit of effort to choose the right candidates, both before and during the elections. It is worth noting that there are no poor candidates, at least not in recent memory.
Emmett Sims The standards of living in developing countries are still nowhere near that of developed nations. but more and more people are living lives of comfort where just one generation before they struggled to survive. The necessities of life (thanks to technology, capitalism, philanthropy, and innovation) are becoming cheap and accessible to all. We may never see the “end” of money, but with an increasing base standard of living that can be available to all, eventually we may lose the need to work to just “pay our bills” and instead apply our time to have opportunities to grow and “better ourselves”… just like on Star Trek. --- ( The Human Adventure is Just Beginning.... Again: Star Trek: The Motion Picture )
Stephanie Radakovich - "The Poor" defines a group of people, which implies permanence.
Muhammad Rasheed The poor class is permanent. They will always be among us.
Stephanie Radakovich - Muhammad, that's true. But why? Attitude? Opportunity? I've been without money in life, even destituted, but I never believed myself a member of an underclass...
Stephanie Radakovich - but by definition, I was a member of The Poor.
Ismail MW - Poor is a state of mind. You can have all the money in the world and STILL be poor.
Colleen Kelly - And there-in, with your belief (despite your government required confirmation 'on paper') you have defined your attitude, Stephanie Radakovich.
Stephanie Radakovich - you can argue that people without extended families & close knit communities are poor.
but calling people The Poor is a humiliation meant to perpetuate a caste system.
Muhammad Rasheed - Poor is 100% a mindset. In order to leave the ranks of the poor it requires a solutions driven/make it happen mindset.
Colleen Kelly - YES! Stephanie, by perpetuating this system it's ultimately about control.
Stephanie Radakovich - absolutely, Colleen.
Muhammad Rasheed - Stephanie Radakovich wrote: "you can argue that people without extended families & close knit communities are poor."
There are successful wealthy individuals without those things, too. They took the time and put in the work to build a network of close friends and business colleagues that share their values and goals.
Stephanie Radakovich wrote: "...but calling people The Poor is a humiliation meant to perpetuate a caste system."
What are they going to do about it?
Muhammad Rasheed - That's what I thought.
Stephanie Radakovich - I don't know the answer to that, Muhammad, because some people don't know why they struggle, or what they need to do to get out of the hole.
Stephanie Radakovich - on Jay Kelley's wall:
Pride and poverty. Lethal combination.
Muhammad Rasheed - I know the answer. They will stay poor and complain about it.
They will always be among us.
Anthony Atkielski - Calling people the poor has absolutely no influence on anything. Those who are destined or determined to escape poverty no matter what they are called. And similarly, those who are destined or content to remain poor will stay that way irrespective of what they are called. Names just do not matter.
Stephanie Radakovich I'd be happy to comfortably pay my bills, get rid of my debt, have good health insurance, and take a real vacation once a year.
Colleen Kelly - ↑ Oui, Anthony!
Anthony Atkielski - At least in the USA and until recently, virtually all wealthy people made themselves that way, they didn't fall into it by luck. Like Mr. Bernstein said in Citizen Kane, making a lot of money is easy, if all you want to do is make a lot of money. Unfortunately, making a lot of money and having time to spend and enjoy it is another matter.
Muhammad Rasheed - Jeremy wrote: "...it's because they don't have the opportunities, and luck, others might have..."
Understand that I'm specifically talking about those people who start off poor and become rich. People do it, but it is rare. It is not easy to overcome that victim mindset (I'm not lucky, I just can't, I'm waiting for XYZ to happen) and make the switch to the solutions driven/make it happen mindset that MAKES opportunities where there are none and MAKES 'good luck' happen when you need it to. Those tools come with determination, patient perseverance, and laser focus.
Muhammad Rasheed - Individuals manage to get there all the time, but the group will not. They will stay.
Muhammad Rasheed - Feeding off of each other and coddling that victim mindset even though it profits them not.
Cynthia McGarvie - You know what also helps with amassing wealth? Being a sociopath. It's like found money, really.
Muhammad Rasheed - Jeremy O'Kelley wrote: "B.S. Bill Gates was lucky"
So having wealthy parents means you are poor now?
Muhammad Rasheed - How was that your example?
Cynthia McGarvie – Why Does Sociopathic Scum Rise to the Top?
Muhammad Rasheed - Jeremy O'Kelley wrote: "I was responding to Anthony."
Okay, as you were.
Anthony Atkielski - Bill Gates was lucky, but he's also quite smart, and that's a big advantage. People who say it's all about luck mysteriously seem to be the ones who never have any of that magic luck.
Being a sociopath helps, as Cynthia points out. If I were dishonest with no conscience, I'd be a billionaire today, no question.
Muhammad Rasheed - Poor people that do everything they can to manage to learn a valuable skill others are willing to pay top dollar for always make it out of the poor classes and create a great life. Those that think that they can only do it through an unattainable magic spell of luck & connections will stay poor.
Anthony Atkielski - The Salon article is a staggering exaggeration, clearly written by someone who hasn't had a lot of "magic luck" in life and is very bitter about it. Most wealthy people are not sociopaths. They do tend to be interested in making money as an end in itself, though.
Anthony Atkielski - Most people who are poor are not mentally deficient, although it is true that mental deficiency almost guarantees poverty. (Another way to ensure poverty is by becoming a single parent without a career.)
Cynthia McGarvie - Apart from the fact that you just defined one qualifying trait of sociopathy (i.e., tending "to be interested in making money as an end in itself" shows a disregard for compassion towards other people), what's your point Anthony?
Cynthia McGarvie - You're pretty much begging the question here, Anthony, when you say that being a single parent without a career ensures poverty. Again, it's a nuanced situation that you've been explaining through the use of sweeping generalizations. Sure makes it a lot easier to avoid doing research, though.
Anthony Atkielski - Only those who haven't tried believe it's all luck and connections, and since they persist in believing that, they will never try.
Being interested in making money as an end in itself is not sociopathy, any more than being interested in composing music for its own sake is sociopathy.
Colleen Kelly - I don't recall anyone saying poor people are dumb. According to Canadian Government guidelines, I am poor. I am far from dumb and wealthy beyond compare with many life blessings that no amount of money could buy. I'm very content.
Muhammad Rasheed - Jeremy O'Kelley wrote: "No, ignoring the important of luck and connections is a way of blaming people for circumstances outside of their control. It's bigotry, plain and simple."
Are you talking to me now, or if I respond to this is it spamming?
Everyone who makes it out of the poor class does it through learning what they need to learn, and working really hard to apply that knowledge. Making connections when they need it and being prepared for opportunities as they arise is part of that learning.
Anthony Atkielski - Blaming a class system is a way to be a loser without taking any responsibility for it.
Cynthia McGarvie - Magical Thinking
Anthony Atkielski - You get what you wish for in life. No doubt about that. The only problem is that many people don't know what they are wishing for, or aren't honest with themselves about it.
Cynthia McGarvie – Post Hoc Fallacy
Ismail MW - Jeremy You can have wealthy parents and STILL end up a screw-up! Bill Gates had LASER focus AND he surrounded himself with ambitious and driven friends. Tyler Perry is a BILLIONAIRE and he didn't have wealthy parents. He did have laser focus and a plan to succeed. Question for you, Jeremy, is what do you define as "hard work." 'Cause when you find something you love to do, it tends not to be work at all. It tends to be play.
Anthony Atkielski - Can't you just express an opinion, instead of a list of links?
Cynthia McGarvie - How about if you actually read them instead?
Muhammad Rasheed - Raise your hand if you are actually clicking on all of these random links.
Muhammad Rasheed - *crickets*
Anthony Atkielski - Most people who work hard enjoy what they do. It's really, really hard to do something well if you can't stand it.
Cynthia McGarvie - Besides, I have expressed opinions which you have ignored. I've resolved to listing your logical fallacies instead.
Muhammad Rasheed - And if you have a victim's attitude.
Muhammad Rasheed - Thanks for the warning. Now i'm REALLY not clicking on them...
Anthony Atkielski - I don't have time to read web pages all day, Cynthia. If you can't summarize your own opinions, I'll just move on.
Cynthia McGarvie - No. I'm allergic to a-holes.
Cynthia McGarvie - Please do. Bye, now.
Ismail MW - Cynthia McGarvie Good links! Thanks for sharing!
Muhammad Rasheed - Cynthia McGarvie wrote: "I've resolved to listing your logical fallacies instead."
So you plan to critique the posters' presentations instead of the actual discussion topic. Interesting.
Muhammad Rasheed - lol
Anthony Atkielski - When you start talking about something other than the topic, you've lost the debate.
Anthony Atkielski - Mr. X now has free time to become politically active and vote. Ultimately he lost his job because elected officials allowed abuses to occur unchecked. A purely capitalist system always goes off the deep end without checks and balances.
Muhammad Rasheed - Cynthia McGarvie wrote: "You know what also helps with amassing wealth? Being a sociopath. It's like found money, really."
Your point seems to be that anyone who develops the ambition to better their life and get out of the poor class is a sociopath. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Ismail MW - Jeremy So what? The life of Mr X. is not the life of his children. Why are his children, as adults, STILL dependent on Mr. X having a job! They can get their own jobs and pay for their own schooling. This is when I'd tell them, get into a TRADE! You get PAID while you go to school! I work with a millionaire welder! The rest of the welders I work with are high six-figure earners! Job goes overseas, open your own firm! It's not what you do as much as it is, HOW you do it that earns you the fortune! Serve more people make more money! Simple equation!
Anthony Atkielski - Calling rich people sociopaths unconditionally is a way of boosting one's own ego. Unfortunately it is not congruent with reality.
Ismail MW - Jeremy In addition, Mr. X should transition from worker bee to OWNER bee! All that expertise should be utilized more. Layoffs are opportunities!
Anthony Atkielski - Of course it's not easy to get out of poverty. But that's not a reason not to try. Those who work hard enough at it escape. The others don't. How else can anyone get out of poverty, if not by trying?
Muhammad Rasheed - Jeremy O'Kelley wrote: "You know what else isn't congruent with reality? The idea that it's easy to get out of poverty."
Strawman much? NOBODY said it was easy. It's simple. And pretty straightforward. But you have to work, strive, sacrifice definitely.
Ismail MW - Jeremy Depending where you live will determine the feasibility of your plans. If you live in a stable economy, bombs not dropping on you everyday, laws and enforcement of laws, property rights, getting out of poverty is far easier than not.
Muhammad Rasheed - You can't help someone not be poor. By doing what?
Ismail MW - Jeremy " Your point is that all poor people are just lazy or stupid."
Muhammad Rasheed - Only THEY can make themselves not poor.
Muhammad Rasheed - Jeremy O'Kelley wrote: "My point is, they're all trying."
No. They think that it takes magic luck and magic connections to get out of poverty. That's what you said, remember?
Anthony Atkielski - A lot of poor people are lazy and/or stupid, but not all. There's always some threshold of effort that is required to escape poverty. When people are willing to expend more than the threshold, they escape; when they aren't, they don't. There is never a situation in which the threshold is infinitely high, but its height varies with circumstances, and so do individual motivation and determination.
Anthony Atkielski - I've never suggested that people bang their heads against a wall. Examples?
Ismail MW - Jeremy No they didn't! YOU are making that implication based on YOUR interpretation. As for this "The opportunities don't present themselves to everyone to escape."
Muhammad Rasheed - Jeremy O'Kelley wrote: "Your point is that all poor people are just lazy or stupid."
The only way to stop being poor is to learn the skills needed that will bring in middle or upper class income. Whatever those skills need to be. If you are poor then you don't know what you need to know, or at least, haven't applied what you do know. Period.
Jeremy O'Kelley wrote: "The opportunities don't present themselves to everyone to escape, and no amount of hard work and wishful thinking will ever help them."
Successful people who go from poor to rich MAKE the opportunities. And they don't take no for an answer. They are solutions driven and make things happen.
Jeremy O'Kelley wrote: "That's the reality..."
An individual's reality is determined by a clear path of conquering objectives to each goal until he has what he claims he wants. If he's not doing that then he has proven he is content being poor.
Jeremy O'Kelley wrote: "...and why we, as good citizens, should work to help them..."
Giving them money will not make them stop being poor. It's good for your soul and all that, sure. But they will still be poor. The only way we can truly help them is to explain that they can come out of poverty by educating themselves and working hard. Telling them they will always be poor because they lack magic and "Oh, here's five dollars" is a hopeless message. Is that your only plan for them?