Wednesday, December 17, 2014

Knighted British Aristocrat Goes on Crackpot Anti-Islamic Rant



Warren Murphy - and here is the history lesson for this weekend: in 1899, sir winston churchill wrote the following:

“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its followers. Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity.

“The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property – either as a child, a wife, or a concubine – must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die: but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.”

Michael Mercer - Powerful stuff Warren, thanks.

Warren Murphy - merc, from sir winston only 115 years ago.

Peter Kaminsky - When properly practiced according to their respective texts, Judaism and Islam are equally barbaric. Fortunately, most people don't follow the Bible or Koran's clear requirements.

Michael Mercer - ISIS Peter. Are you a supporter? Defender?

Peter Kaminsky - Of course not. Nor am I supporter of Bashir's massacre of Palestinians. However, ISIS and Bashir appear to have correctly interpreted their respective horrific texts, i.e. the Koran and the Bible, which clearly command you to kill unbelievers.

Peter Kaminsky - Michael, have you read the entire Bible, cover to cover?

Michael Mercer - No, I haven't read the bible cover to cover, I am an agnostic and that is a book driven by a couple thousand years of politics and greed rather than God's hand. Love the strawman move though. Bashir is not the subject here so let us get back to ISIS and the atrocities being committed in the name of Islam all over the globe. Your excuse for that is what?

Warren Murphy - sorry,peter, but that's horseshit....there are very few jews today who deal with all the sillinesses of the pentateuch, because they have grown up and moved on; however, the islamo-nuts who are unfortunately the voice of the prophet's religion -- (since the progressives are frightened to death of challenging the savages' stupidity) -- are still living in the 8th century. do yourself a favor...spend a couple of bucks and buy the little green book of the ayatollah khomeini, the religious and intellectual and spiritual leader of the religion today...try not to puke as he gives you the rules for humping goats. pay attention to the world, buddy.

Basil Sands - Actually, the Torah specified the violence you are probably referring to was directed against very specific named people groups who'd been sent prophets for hundreds of years. In the Law of Moses there are also very specific sins, that required witnesses before severe punishment could be meted out. It never says that the Hebrews should kill or subjugate all non-believers and even goes out of its way to make way for mercy. The Koran on the other hand, clearly states to kill or subjugate everyone who does not comply. And historically we can see the difference, Jews have been on the defense or on the run most of their existence within a short time after Abraham, Isaac and Jacob called on God's name. The sons of Ishmael on the other hand, before and after Islam, have typically been on the hunt and almost never on the run.

And in the Bible (The Christian version of the Hebrew scriptures) it goes even farther to tell Christ's followers to not even judge those outside the church but to live at peace with everyone around them.

Warren Murphy - thanx, basil. maybe some of the others will read what you've read.

Michael Mercer - Who is at war with the world right now? Simple question with only one answer.

Warren Murphy - goddam,merc, you navy fliers are smart.

Peter Kaminsky - My point is, when practiced correctly, each religion is horrendous. Do you agree or not? People who properly interpret Islam are at war with the world right now. So what? Does that absolve Christianity of all it's sins? Does Islam's atrocities negate those of Christians?

Michael Mercer - You answered your own question unless you can show me a christian army beheading children. Wow, too easy. Go to sleep, you are worth more when unconscious.

Michael Mercer - If your point is all religion is evil then fine but excusing Islam for what it is doing now means you are delusional.

Peter Kaminsky - I am not excusing them. What part of "Of course not" do you not understand?

Basil Sands - Ah...Peter you're referring to multiple things as if they were one. Not only apples and oranges, but apples and grey cinder blocks.
When practiced correctly...see my previous post.

Those who call themselves by a particular title but do not adhere to the text their religion is supposed to follow....they are not the same.
Source documents are the true foundation. Christians and Jews who commit atrocities are condemned in their own book, the other side, praised.

Peter Kaminsky - "Specific groups?" Really?

Peter Kaminsky - Deuteronomy 13:12-16New International Version (NIV)

12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,[a] both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt,

Peter Kaminsky - Yes, I can show you a Christian army beheading children.

Michael Mercer - in the 21st century?

Peter Kaminsky - The Uganda "Lord's Resistance Army."

Basil Sands - Re: Deuteronomy reference - see earlier in the Pentateuch when the owners of those towns are named.

Re LRA (I had a feeling you were referring to those beasts) See my second post. Kony et al can call themselves anything they want...they are not followers of Christ...as per source documents (aka The Bible).

Doug Kenney - That was more a local African mystic influence than a pure "christian" group.

Basil Sands - Well, I'm off to productive things that make life better...aka recording audiobooks and writing my own books where the good guys win...rather than circular arguments with folks whose mind may be pre-made up.

Homework everyone - Read the Bible, Read the Koran, Compare and Contrast foundational principles...reports due by semester end. G'day.

Peter Kaminsky - Michael, you stupid, arrogant, ignorant fart. You bombastic, moronic useless simpleton. You worthless, uninformed, clueless turd. You inconceivably stupid pile of camel dung. You are so stupid you think that because I oppose religion I support Islam. Where do you draw such a conclusion? As a matter of fact, I am a staunch supporter of Israel and a staunch opponent of Islamic terrorist groups and Islamic extremists. Only an ignoramus would jump to such gigantic conclusions when the person they are debating has specifically stated the opposite. You are sucking up valuable oxygen on planet earth. Please stop doing so.

Muhammad Rasheed - [gets ready to suicide bomb this stupid thread]

Muhammad Rasheed - How is that crack pot's retarded rant a "history lesson?"

Muhammad Rasheed -  >:(

Peter Kaminsky - The owners of the town are not named. And if they were, is that acceptable?

Michael Mercer - I vote don't bother reading mystical tomes that preach magic and more importantly, regard what the adherents of those mystical tomes bring to the world. Simple stuff. I don't have to understand a man who beheads a child, I just want him in my gun sites.

Muhammad Rasheed - What is "magic?"

Muhammad Rasheed - Beheading children is not Islamic, Michael, no more than lynching people is Christian, or shooting unarmed black youth is American.

Muhammad Rasheed *sighhhh*

Muhammad Rasheed – (i wish my contacts would hurry up with that damn shipment of plastic explosives...)

Robert Kraus - before 9/11 islam was almost always followed by the words "the religion of peace",and most people accepted that. After 9/11 that illusory mask was found out and since then the muslims extremists have ensured that its dirty underbelly is exposed to all. one should not defend the indefensible, instead accept the flaws and try to work them out. unfortunately i do not hear the so called moderate muslims rising up to stop their extremist brethren.

Muhammad Rasheed - Robert Kraus wrote: "before 9/11 islam was almost always followed by the words 'the religion of peace',and most people accepted that."

Noooo, they always responded with, "Nuh UNH! It was spread by the sword! 'Murica!!"

Peter Kaminsky - The war starts with the minds of children and you win their minds by understanding your enemies arguments. Understanding your enemy is important. Muhammed, I'm serious. You should be careful what you say on here. You seem like the most reasonable person on this thread, myself included. I'd hate to see you carted away.

Gojko Kasich - "Religion of pieces." Ask the Greeks, Serbs, and Jews.

Michael Mercer - Hey Muhammead, I am agnostic, look it up, but ISIS of ISIL is beheading children of other faiths, How is that my problem? Maybe you should fix your faith rather than trash others for regarding it as a threat.

Muhammad Rasheed - Robert Kraus wrote: "After 9/11 that illusory mask was found out and since then the muslims extremists have ensured that its dirty underbelly is exposed to all."

What was found out is that Western war profiteers, in cahoots with their Israeli intelligence allies, would do anything for money, including slaughtering American citizens.

Robert Kraus wrote: "...one should not defend the indefensible, instead accept the flaws and try to work them out."

lol There are no flaws in Islam. The flaws are in old traditional cultures, and within ignorant Westerners who are unaware of the difference.

Robert Kraus wrote: "...unfortunately i do not hear the so called moderate muslims rising up to stop their extremist brethren."

I don't see a lot of 'Muricans condemning white cop over-the-top violence against unarmed black youth, so I guess we're even, hm? My taking the time to educate on what Islam really is, represents my condemnation of tribalism/traditionalism in the guise of my faith.

Gojko Kasich - I give a shit what Robert Kraus wrote. Clearly, Robert Kraus' understanding of history is almost as backwards as Muslim understanding of child molesting.

Muhammad Rasheed - Michael Mercer wrote: "Hey Muhammead..."

Hey, Meekeeli. *shrug*

Michael Mercer wrote: "I am agnostic, look it up..."

[rolls eyes]

Michael Mercer wrote: "but ISIS of ISIL is beheading children of other faiths..."

They are also beheading Muslims. What does that have to do with Islam?

Michael Mercer wrote: "How is that my problem?"

Because in your ignorance you are equating a radical terrorist group with the religion of Islam, similar to if I equated The Christian Knights of the Klu Klux Klan with the religion of Christianity. It's stupid. Stop doing that.

Michael Mercer wrote: "Maybe you should fix your faith rather than trash others for regarding it as a threat."

My faith is flawless. It is mankind that is flawed. I'm pretty sure you actually know that fact (unless I'm giving you WAY too much credit) except when you are blinded by 'patriotic' bigotry.

Peter Kaminsky - Here's what the Koran has to say about the matter;

Peter Kaminsky - KORAN commands to kill infidels:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah -- he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)

Michael Mercer - Are you threatening me Muhammad? Are you threatening an attack with your wish for explosives?

Muhammad Rasheed - ^It's a joke based on the stereotype of radical terrorists... specifically of the Tim McVeigh breed.

Peter Kaminsky - It's clearly a joke, though inadvisable.

Robert Kraus - to some, honor killings, child brides, intolerance of other religions, are considered flaws. muhammad, if you are down with that, i need no education from you.

Michael Mercer - Sure it is Muhammad. I am armed BTW, and well trained. Just sayin' Thanks for sealing my case, though, way to easy. Yikes.

Muhammad Rasheed - @Peter... The fighting verse message in context:

The Holy Qur'an 2:190-193

190 Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

192 But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

193 And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.

***********

As you see it is a defense command. The early Muslims were being actively persecuted by the powerful pagan tribes of Mecca, and when they fled to Medina (this is what an ACTUAL "history lesson" sounds like, Warren), the Meccans feared that the Muslims would grow strong enough to threaten their pilgrimage revenue with their uncompromising monotheistic stance, so they gathered an army to wipe them out. The Muslims didn't want to fight because war is stupid and destructive for one, for two, the Meccas were their close blood relatives. But God is saying that the fight would be good for them because the pagans only wished them ill. But if they stopped persecuting the Muslims, then they were commanded to forgive them, as God forgives, and let there be peace.

The pagans didn't want peace though.

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "It's clearly a joke, though inadvisable."

For those too stupid to get the joke, that's their problem. This thread was unreasonably hostile to Islam before I arrived, remember?

Peter Kaminsky - You got me on one. What about the rest? The Koran is full of contradictions. The more peaceful verses being written earlier in Mohammed's life, when he was not as powerful, the more violent, more recent as he gained power.

Muhammad Rasheed - Robert Kraus wrote: "to some, honor killings, child brides, intolerance of other religions, are considered flaws."

None of those items are of Islam. Those are cultural traditions that some people who happen to be Muslim follow. Islam itself does not support those practices.

Robert Kraus wrote: "muhammad, if you are down with that, i need no education from you."

Obviously you need it more than most. You are just as smart on Islam as that damn Winston Churchill.

Peter Kaminsky - Well, Mohammed married a 9 year old, didn't he?

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "You got me on one. What about the rest? The Koran is full of contradictions. The more peaceful verses being written earlier in Mohammed's life, when he was not as powerful, the more violent, more recent as he gained power."

The same. That was the point of me setting the stage for what was going on during the 22 years of the Qur'an's revelation on earth. By the time the last of the verses were revealed to the prophet, the message was complete; the canon was now closed. All of those verses were related to the same extended incidents... the battles being fought for the early Muslim's survival as they were being actively persecuted by the armies of pagan Mecca. It stopped when numerous Muslims from all over the peninsula gathered... all wearing the while robes of the pilgrimage... ten thousand strong, and walked into the holy city to take it from the pagans without a drop of blood shed.

Peter Kaminsky - It says to make war on infidels. I think that's pretty simple.

Michael Mercer - Muhammad doesn't like contradictions so he wishes for explosives. Very telling. Maybe we have identified a problem here.

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "Well, Mohammed married a 9 year old, didn't he?"

No. Aisha was around 14-15 when that marriage was consummated. The 9 year old thing was a traditional myth.


Peter Kaminsky - Oh, well if she was fifteen....

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "It says to make war on infidels. I think that's pretty simple."

Well, divorced from the context of historical fact it can mean whatever those who are inclined to vilify the faith want it to mean, hm?

Peter Kaminsky - The Koran does say you must wait until they are "marriageable age" but most Muslim scholars consider that to be puberty.

Peter Kaminsky - It means make war on the infidels.

Peter Kaminsky - And I am equally inclined to vilify those who follow the Bible, as you can see.

Muhammad Rasheed - Puberty is of marriageable age in cultures all over the world and throughout history.

Peter Kaminsky - I read what I read, and interpret it as what it says.

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "And I am equally inclined to vilify those who follow the Bible, as you can see."

We're talking about Islam in this thread, Peter.

Peter Kaminsky - Ok, so you have no problem with marrying a thirteen year old girl?

Peter Kaminsky - I am talking about both. Have been since I joined the thread.

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "I read what I read, and interpret it as what it says."

Divorced from the context, any interpretation will be fundamentally flawed, ESPECIALLY when the interpreter is biased against the source. Common sense.

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "Ok, so you have no problem with marrying a thirteen year old girl?"

Of course I do. I'm an American, influenced by American cultural norms. Duh.

Peter Kaminsky - I think it's important to point out the hypocrisy of any person who is hypocritical. If you follow the Koran and the Bible, then you kill infidels. If you follow them and claim that is not your obligation, then you haven't read them or you are a hypocrite.

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "I am talking about both. Have been since I joined the thread."

I'm here for the Islam portion. I really thought it was obvious.

Peter Kaminsky - "Kill the infidels" needs no context. The word of God should need no context. And if it does require context, who is fit to provide it? Are you the ultimate arbiter?

Peter Kaminsky - It's not obvious when you say I am vilifying Islam you make it sound like I am only vilifying Islam, so I wanted to clarify that.

Robert Kraus - muhammad, none of those items are of islam - hmm, did the prophet marry his favorite wife when she was 6 or 7, then consummate it when she was 9. there is a great book called "the history of religion" which tells how he usurped many of the pagan rituals of his time and made them part of the religion he created. it also tells how the jewish, christian and other religions evolved from earlier sources and continued to do so as time went on. one of the 8 spoke wheels is "right view", which means to see things as they are not as you wish they were. anyone who picks up a newspaper or reads about current world events would have to be intellectually dishonest not to recognize a terrrible problem within the muslim world. sorry if you cannot see it.

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "I think it's important to point out the hypocrisy of any person who is hypocritical."

Me too. It's fun! 

Peter Kaminsky wrote: "If you follow the Koran and the Bible, then you kill infidels."

I "kill infidels" based on the specific instructions of my Lord regarding the subject. I don't just make up my own interpretation of it based on 'Murica!!!!

Peter Kaminsky wrote: "If you follow them and claim that is not your obligation, then you haven't read them or you are a hypocrite."

If God says specifically, "THIS is how you do it," but instead I do it in the weird & warped way Peter Kaminsky thinks the text is saying it should be done based on 'Murica!!! then I would clearly be in the wrong. God knows, and Peter Kaminsky knows not. I follow God.

Peter Kaminsky - If you say "stop saying bad things about my religion" I feel inclined to point out that it is not just your religion I am criticizing. I am a critic of all belief in the unproven, the superstitions, the giant invisible men in the sky who command us to do terrible things. I believe in science, logic, and progress. Islam as practiced in many cases and as written, and Judaism as practices and in many cases as written, is barbaric. I am ethnically Jewish, if it makes any difference.

Peter Kaminsky - Interesting thread.

Peter Kaminsky - Muhammed, it says "Make war on the infidels." So, that is what God is supposedly telling you to do. There is nothing weird or warped about the way I interpret it. I interpret it as written. How do you interpret it?

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "'Kill the infidels' needs no context."

And that kind of thinking is the root of all the problems in the world. Everything needs context.

Peter Kaminsky wrote: "The word of God should need no context."

Based on what? Your anti-religion opinion of the matter? That is absurd.

Peter Kaminsky wrote: "And if it does require context, who is fit to provide it? Are you the ultimate arbiter?"

The one that's doing the reading, assuming he is reading to gain understanding, should also study the facts of history related to the event in order to gain full knowledge of the teachings on which to meditate upon. Is that 100% necessary in order to know what the holy text's message is saying? No. The Qur'an was clear on this item as in the post I provided. Your post on the other hand was pulled from a cherry-picked anti-Islam site and was divorced from context. From your way of thinking, this was good enough, since you were clearly already sold on the vilification of Islam by its enemies anyway.

Peter Kaminsky - Sorry I spelled your name wrong.

Muhammad Rasheed - ^Forgiven. A small matter.

Peter Kaminsky - So the word of God is imperfect, because it cannot be understood without providing context?

Muhammad Rasheed - Muhammad Rasheed wrote: "Is that 100% necessary in order to know what the holy text's message is saying? No."

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "Muhammed, it says "Make war on the infidels." So, that is what God is supposedly telling you to do. There is nothing weird or warped about the way I interpret it. I interpret it as written. How do you interpret it?"

190 Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

192 But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

193 And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

Muhammad Rasheed - You should probably read the whole thing this time.

Muhammad Rasheed - I know it's not saying what you wanted it to say, and you are probably disappointed, but God is clear.

Peter Kaminsky - Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Peter Kaminsky - By all means, provide me the proper context.

Peter Kaminsky - He is clear indeed.

Peter Kaminsky - That's what I've been saying.

Muhammad Rasheed - Post the rest of the verses in the alternate translations.

Peter Kaminsky - You've been saying he requires "context."

Muhammad Rasheed - hahahah

Peter Kaminsky - Post the entire Koran?

Muhammad Rasheed - You, my friend, are intellectually dishonest.

Muhammad Rasheed - Take a bow.

Peter Kaminsky - How so?

Muhammad Rasheed - At this point it is clear that I’ve won, because you have now resorted to playing games.

Muhammad Rasheed - Now I'm going to respond to Robert's last post until you decide you want to be serious.

Peter Kaminsky - I'm not playing games. I simply asked you to give me the surrounding text which cleanses the command to make war on me and my family.

Peter Kaminsky - Can you supply it?

Muhammad Rasheed - Don't insult my intelligence, Peter. I was trading with you because I thought you were being sincere.

Peter Kaminsky - I am.

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "I'm not playing games. I simply asked you to give me the surrounding text which cleanses the command to make war on me and my family."

It's in the verses 2:190-193 that I posted twice now. What did they say?

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "I am."

One more chance activated: Now.

Muhammad Rasheed - Don't waste my time.

Peter Kaminsky - Yes, you effectively refuted me on 2:190-193.

Muhammad Rasheed - And how did I do that? Explain.

Muhammad Rasheed - What did the text say?

Peter Kaminsky - You gave me the rest of the text. Can you do so for the other quotes?

Muhammad Rasheed - Of course! That's why I said what I said about explaining the background, and using that one as the example for them all.

Muhammad Rasheed - Will you bother to read them if I do, or are you further committed to more game playing? Tell me.

Peter Kaminsky - Am doing so, but I have read half the Koran and found it highly intolerant.

Muhammad Rasheed - Define "intolerant."

Muhammad Rasheed - 2:62
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

5:69
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

22:17
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for Allah is witness of all things.

Peter Kaminsky - Not willing to treat people of different beliefs fairly.

Muhammad Rasheed - Fairly in what way? God says, as I just posted above, that as long as you believe in Him and do right and avoid wrong, you will receive your reward from Him and it doesn't matter what religion you follow. You don't think that's a tolerant message?

Muhammad Rasheed - Odd how your favorite anti-Islam site didn't cherry pick those.

Peter Kaminsky - Some of them believe in the Prophet and some turn aside from him. The flame of hell is their sufficing punishment.

Peter Kaminsky - I looked at the surrounding text and found no respite for ones who do not believe.

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "Some of them believe in the Prophet and some turn aside from him. The flame of hell is their sufficing punishment."

Those who "turn away from the prophet" are rejecting his message, which is "Believe in God, avoid evil, do good."

Hellfire is the reward of those who reject that message. Don't do that. You can do those things without being a Muslim specifically as He said.

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "I looked at the surrounding text and found no respite for ones who do not believe."

Their respite is that they have until the day of their death to get on the program.

Muhammad Rasheed - Since no one knows the day of their death, they'd better get on that.

Peter Kaminsky - "Oh believers, take not the Jews or Christians as friends."

Peter Kaminsky - Surrounding text does not qualify that. That is intolerant.

Peter Kaminsky - So we get on your program, or we roast?

Muhammad Rasheed - Yes, Peter. Unless you like roasting.

Peter Kaminsky - Very tolerant.

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky "Oh believers, take not the Jews or Christians as friends. Surrounding text does not qualify that. That is intolerant."

That's not intolerant, that was basic self preservation. The Jewish tribes at the time sided with the pagan Meccans against them, and the Christians wish only to convert them to the blasphemous worship of Jesus the human messenger (a form of paganism). It's better to put some distance between you and them so that they don't tempt you into endangering your soul if you are weak in faith.

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "Very tolerant."

You can live in peace, and believe your atheistic/pagan craziness all you wish. Just don't attack ME and force me to pull out the defense verses on your ass. lol

Muhammad Rasheed - That's plenty tolerant. "You do you and I'll do me. Don't bother me and we'll be alright."

Peter Kaminsky - The craziness is the invisible man in the sky for which there is no proof whatsoever.

Peter Kaminsky - I don't think roasting in hell is allright.

Peter Kaminsky - LOL.

Peter Kaminsky - I don't think saying women should obey men is alright.

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "The craziness is the invisible man in the sky for which there is no proof whatsoever."

Yeah, keep talking like that. And make sure you bring your Sunscreen spf 5,000,000,000 with you. lol

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "I don't think saying women should obey men is alright."

Why not? Based on what?

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "I don't think roasting in hell is allright."

Me either, that's why I don't wanna go. Hence: Al-Islam. Easy.

Peter Kaminsky - So, you think men are superior, and should obey men?

Muhammad Rasheed - What?

Peter Kaminsky - Woman should obey men.

Muhammad Rasheed - Oh. No, why do you think that?

Peter Kaminsky - Do you think men are superior, and women should obey them?

Muhammad Rasheed - Why would I think that "men are superior?"

Peter Kaminsky - Because the Koran says they are.

Muhammad Rasheed - lol Show me.

Peter Kaminsky - Sura 4, Verse 30.

Peter Kaminsky - LOL.

Peter Kaminsky - And I'm holding the Koran now.

Peter Kaminsky - Don't you know your own holy text?

Peter Kaminsky - Shameful.

Muhammad Rasheed - Sura 4:30
30 If any do that in rancour and injustice,- soon shall We cast them into the Fire: And easy it is for Allah.

Muhammad Rasheed - Are you SURE you're holding a Qur'an?

Muhammad Rasheed - Maybe it's that Ayatolla Khomeini thing Warren mentioned...?

Peter Kaminsky - "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities which God hath gifted the one above the other and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient."

Muhammad Rasheed - That's Sura 4:30? or is that just the address the website gave for it?

Peter Kaminsky - Okay, I don't know the correct reference. But I got the quote correct.

Peter Kaminsky - Or did I not?

Peter Kaminsky - And I read the preceding and following text.

Muhammad Rasheed - Sure, you're just making me hunt for the rest of it...

Muhammad Rasheed - Okay, I found it...

Sura 4:34
34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them first, Next, refuse to share their beds, And last beat them lightly; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Peter Kaminsky - So, I made it up?

Muhammad Rasheed - No, it was just badly cherry picked out of context.

Muhammad Rasheed - The way those sites usually are. You must learn to be more discerning, please, if it is truth that you seek.

Peter Kaminsky - That's not what my translation says. It's not from a website.

Muhammad Rasheed - Intergrity check: Fail.

Peter Kaminsky - So I'm lying.

Muhammad Rasheed - Relax. I forgive you.

Peter Kaminsky - So beating a disobedient wife (lightly) is okay?

Peter Kaminsky - Are you saying I do not have the Koran on my lap?

Peter Kaminsky - Are you saying its okay to beat women if they disobey you?

Peter Kaminsky - Yes or no?

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "So beating a disobedient wife (lightly) is okay?"

Yeah, if she's trippin' and you've tried everything else. But it is best to deal with her in honor and respect, for Allah loves those who love doing good.

Peter Kaminsky - Are you calling me a liar?

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "Are you saying I do not have the Koran on my lap?"

The evidence suggests that you do not. I would however freely apologize for jumping to a wrong conclusion were the facts to prove otherwise. What do you have? Throw down your rod, O Peter. Show me the truth.

Peter Kaminsky - Well, that is called "battery" and it's a class A Misdemeanor in Illinois for the first offense, a felony for the second.

Muhammad Rasheed - Of course. Naturally I wouldn't do it myself. American cultural norms, remember?

Peter Kaminsky - Since the Koran is online and quotes are online, how do you propose I do so. I have to beat my wife, but that can wait.

Muhammad Rasheed - hahahaha

Peter Kaminsky - You wouldn't follow the requirements of the Koran?

Peter Kaminsky - It is not optional.

Peter Kaminsky - hahaha.

Muhammad Rasheed - Just take a selfie with your smart phone showing me this (probably fictional) lap Qur'an and we can move on. How hard is that?

Peter Kaminsky - Sure.

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "You wouldn't follow the requirements of the Koran?"

hahahaha Cute. You need to practice your scriptural interpretative powers, chum. Sorry to stereotype, but based on your last name I assumed you'd have at least rudimentary training in that area.

Peter Kaminsky -



Peter Kaminsky - Satisfied?

Peter Kaminsky - The Koran I hold is real. It is Allah who is fictional.

Muhammad Rasheed - Is that really you? Why does the pic look so pudgy and wore out, but the avatar looks...?

Okay, I'll accept it.

Peter Kaminsky - You have called me a liar, but I see no apology forthcoming.

Muhammad Rasheed - I officially apologize for thinking you were lying. Tell me who the translator is, please.

Muhammad Rasheed - Patience! Jesus!

Muhammad Rasheed - I'm a two-finger typist!

Muhammad Rasheed - Sir Winston wasn't the translator, was he?

Muhammad Rasheed - Peter Kaminsky wrote: "The Koran I hold is real. It is Allah who is fictional."

How can the message be real but the Author fake? Allah is always Real. He's the only thing that's real in all of existence. Even we are but illusion.

Peter Kaminsky - O you who believe! Avoid much suspicion, in deeds some suspicions are sins. And spy not neither backbite one another. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his dead brother? You would hate it (so hate backbiting). And fear Allah, verily, Allah is the one who accepts repentance, Most Merciful. (49: 12)

Peter Kaminsky - So, you have resorted to insulting my appearance.

Muhammad Rasheed - I was just goofing. Relax.

Muhammad Rasheed - Who is the translator on that copy again?

Peter Kaminsky - John Medows Rodwwell.

Muhammad Rasheed - Okay, thanks.

Peter Kaminsky - Rodwell. Sorry.

Muhammad Rasheed - Got it! Easy.

Okay, where were we?

Peter Kaminsky - I knew you would criticize the translation.

Peter Kaminsky - So cherry pick the translation which you want.

Peter Kaminsky - I didn't cherry pick this. I just bought it.

Muhammad Rasheed - I'm not criticizing, I just wanted it for easy reference so I can see the surrounding verses.  You KNOW I’m all about context.

Muhammad Rasheed - Stop being so suspicious. Geez.

Peter Kaminsky - Now, you have called me pudgy, and a liar. I have no problem with intelligent debate. When someone starts insulting me, I insult back.

Peter Kaminsky - So...

Muhammad Rasheed - lol I told you I was just goofing on the pic, and I already apologized for thinking you were full of crap about the Koran.

Muhammad Rasheed - Stop living in the past.

Peter Kaminsky - I'm not finished.

Muhammad Rasheed - lol

Peter Kaminsky - Fuck you.

Peter Kaminsky - Just goofing.

Muhammad Rasheed - Wait... does this mean I won and you don't want to admit it, so you are picking a fake fight with me to save face?

Muhammad Rasheed - Oh. lol

Muhammad Rasheed - You play too much...

Muhammad Rasheed - hahahahahah

Muhammad Rasheed - Good one!

Peter Kaminsky - It means I don't like being insulted.

Peter Kaminsky - Or laughed at.

Peter Kaminsky - And that an intelligent, decent person does not do these things in a debate.

Muhammad Rasheed - I said I was just goofing! I wasn't serious. Relax!

Muhammad Rasheed - I'm a cartoonist/humorist by profession. Don't take it personally. You're alright.

Muhammad Rasheed - Don't derail Warren's outstanding, tolerant and respectful thread with your over-sensitive, atheistic foolishness.

Peter Kaminsky - Don't derail it with superstition, insults, and nonsense.

Muhammad Rasheed - It was like that when I showed up.

Muhammad Rasheed - I guess it's not allowed once the Black American Muslim showed up. Sad. Will things ever change?

Muhammad Rasheed - [holds hands up to the sky]

Muhammad Rasheed - lol

Peter Kaminsky - True, but instead of debating me, you are baiting me.

Muhammad Rasheed - I apologized! Geez! Let's move on!

Peter Kaminsky - So, your innuendo is that I am a racist?

Muhammad Rasheed - lol No, I was kidding. Are you?

Peter Kaminsky - You do a lot of kidding.

Muhammad Rasheed -   :D

Peter Kaminsky - And a hilarious one.

Muhammad Rasheed - Thanks! I worked hard to become so.

Muhammad Rasheed - (i just need a more receptive audience)

Peter Kaminsky - Yes, people who will take being called fat liars as a humorous goof, a jolly, good-natured jest, and will laugh heartily.

Muhammad Rasheed - Don't worry about it. When I came in here people were associating me with crazy folk who behead children. I didn't take it personal. You shouldn't take it personal if some guy you don't know calls you "pudgy."

Peter Kaminsky - You may have the last word. Just be careful not to make any cartoons of Mohammed. They'll kill you.

Muhammad Rasheed - Okay, Peter, here's another integrity check for you. This is what you posted from your Koran translation:

Peter Kaminsky posted: "Men are superior to women on account of the qualities which God hath gifted the one above the other and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient."

...and here's the full text from the same translator:

"Men are superior to women on account of the qualities with which God hath gifted the one above the other, and on account of the outlay they make from their substance for them. Virtuous women are obedient, careful, during the husband's absence, because God hath of them been careful. But chide those for whose refractoriness ye have cause to fear; remove them into beds apart, and scourage them: but if they are obedient to you, then seek not occasion against them: verily, God is High, Great!"

Now, if you didn't copy/paste the quote from your favorite anti-Islam website as you claimed, and instead typed this yourself from the copy of the Koran you showed me in the selfie, then tell me why you ended the quote with a period implying that it was the end of the verse, with the false impression that of course would leave in the reader?

Did you really type that yourself from the copy you held, or did you copy/paste someone else's anti-Islam cherry picked quote?

Answer truthfully, please.

Peter Kaminsky - I typed it. I had to stop typing somewhere.

Muhammad Rasheed - Why didn't you use the 'dot dot dot' meaning you cut the sentence off?

Peter Kaminsky - I'm sorry I didn't use the ...

Muhammad Rasheed - I forgive you.

See Also:
The Butthurt of Insecurity: Peter's Return

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