Saturday, December 20, 2014

Defense of the Gold Standard & the Discovery of Freedom, pt 6 of 7


Muhammad Rasheed - How To Crash a Stock Market in 11 E-Z Steps

1.) "The Roaring Twenties... was a time of wealth and excess. Building on post-war optimism, many rural Americans migrated to the cities in vast numbers throughout the decade with the hopes of finding a more prosperous life in the ever growing expansion of America's industrial sector.[5] While the American cities prospered, the vast migration from rural areas and continued neglect of the US agriculture industry would create widespread financial despair among American farmers throughout the decade...

2.) "Despite the dangers of speculation, many believed that the stock market would continue to rise indefinitely. On March 25, 1929, however, a mini crash occurred after investors started to sell stocks at a rapid pace, exposing the market's shaky foundation.

3.) "...the American economy was now showing ominous signs of trouble.[7] Steel production was declining, construction was sluggish, car sales were down, and consumers were building up high debts because of easy credit.

4.) "On September 20, the London Stock Exchange (LSE) officially crashed when top British investor Clarence Hatry and many of his associates were jailed for fraud and forgery.[9] The LSE's crash greatly weakened the optimism of American investment in markets overseas."

5.) "In the days leading up to the crash, the market was severely unstable. Periods of selling and high volumes of trading were interspersed with brief periods of rising prices and recovery. Economist and author Jude Wanniski later correlated these swings with the prospects for passage of the Smoot–Hawley Tariff Act, which was then being debated in Congress.

6.) "On October 24 ("Black Thursday"), the market lost 11% of its value at the opening bell on very heavy trading. Several leading Wall Street bankers met to find a solution to the panic and chaos on the trading floor.

7.) "With the bankers' financial resources behind him, [Richard] Whitney [VP of the Exchange] placed a bid to purchase a large block of shares in U.S. Steel at a price well above the current market. As traders watched, Whitney then placed similar bids on other "blue chip" stocks. This tactic was similar to one that ended the Panic of 1907. It succeeded in [temporarily] halting the slide.

8.) "Over the weekend, the events were covered by the newspapers across the United States... [and] more investors decided to get out of the market, and the slide continued with a record loss in the Dow for the day of 38.33 points, or 13%.

9.) "The next day, 'Black Tuesday', October 29, 1929, about sixteen million shares were traded, and the Dow lost an additional 30 points, or 12%, amid rumors that U.S. President Herbert Hoover would not veto the pending Smoot–Hawley Tariff Act.

10.) "On October 29, William C. Durant joined with members of the Rockefeller family and other financial giants to buy large quantities of stocks in order to demonstrate to the public their confidence in the market, but their efforts failed to stop the large decline in prices.

11.) "After the Smoot–Hawley Tariff Act was enacted in mid-June, the Dow dropped again, stabilizing above 200. The following year, the Dow embarked on another, much longer, steady slide from April 1931 to July 8, 1932 when it closed at 41.22—its lowest level of the 20th century, concluding an 89% loss rate for all of the market's stocks."

Muhammad Rasheed - This was everything leading up to the Wall Street Crash of 1929 which started the 10 years of the Great Depression. Funny how it involved the usual gang of assholes, playing their usual asshole financial and stock speculation tricks, and not fucking ONCE was the gold standard mentioned.

Sooo... what the fuck was Mr. Princeton/Nobel Prize winner talking about?

Abdur Rasheed - Gold being valuable is pretty mainstream yet not supported by the facts.

Muhammad Rasheed - Okay, what facts demonstrate that gold has no value? It was used as the official backing of the nation's currency under the gold standard, and now out from under the gold standard it is still considered valuable by people...showed off, traded, invested, hoarded... everything you do with something of value. Even our mutual enemy, the Federal Reserve itself, has no such illusion, and keeps a big chunk of their assets in gold. These are the facts that demonstrate gold's very real value. Which facts of yours show otherwise?

Abdur Rasheed - Muhammad wrote: "So, I repeat, all the Panics from 1873 up to the 1907 one were actually caused by the banks themselves. What did the gold standard do exactly? Well, of course all the cash in stores has to be represented by gold, so if I do a 'bank run' with all my cash in tow, you MUST give me my gold NOW."

When the banks crashed doesnt mean that they crashed because they handed out everybodies money back to them and went under.

It means that they handed out YOUR money to farmers or buggy whip companies, and other bad investments and your shit was GONE. The rest of the money left when people stated mad mobbong them and taking their money out and stuffing it in their mattresses or burying it in the yard.

First come first serve, but before the people got wind to mad mob the bank to try and get their money/gold back MOST of the money was gone.

Muhammad wrote: "And if your ass had been illegally (or at least with special, temporary gov permissions) printing out more money than we had in stores, YOU will have to eat that, usually collapsing several banks. But I don't give a fuck. I have MY money. You shouldn't have been fucking up, Mr. Private Bank Entrepreneur. Perhaps the next bank owner that comes along WON'T be a greedy jackass. 'Tis doubtful, but it may be true through some queer twist of fate."

MOST PEOPLE WERE FUCKED.

Banks were and ARE in the business of making money WITH money. Now they use the Feds Fiat money but back then they used what they had on hand only. There was no FDIC insurance for your money.

I perfer FDIC insurance for my money. FUCK PANICKED BANK RUNS AND WAITING HOURS IN LINE TO LEARN THAT I WAS TOO LATE AND NOW I GOTTA WAIT IN THAT LONG ASS BREAD LINE TO FEED MY FAMILY!

Muhammad Rasheed  - Stop. I didn't say at any point that we should establish a gold standard AND do away with FDIC insurance.

DID I????

Didn't I BEGIN this thread saying I favored an eclectic mix of policies that would work best for everybody? SO where did you pull THAT shit from? Strawman land??? Stick to what I am ACTUALLY arguing, please. Thank you.

Me: “I believe in an ecletic mix of living principles to govern our society by, leaning in a libertarian direction.”

You & Jackals Home: [in unison] “Why are you a card-carrying, rabid Tea Partier that hates progress, love, etc.???”

Me: “dafuq?” 

Muhammad Rasheed - Abdur Rasheed wrote: “When the banks crashed doesnt mean that they crashed because they handed out everybodies money back to them and went under.”

FROM WIKI – “A bank run (also known as a run on the bank) occurs in a fractional reserve banking system when a large number of customers withdraw their deposits from a financial institution at the same time and either demand cash or transfer those funds into government bonds, precious metals or stones, or a safer institution because they believe that the financial institution is, or might become, insolvent. As a bank run progresses, it generates its own momentum, in a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy (or positive feedback loop) – as more people withdraw their deposits, the likelihood of default increases, thus triggering further withdrawals. This can destabilize the bank to the point where it runs out of cash and thus faces sudden bankruptcy.”

Muhammad Rasheed - I approve of something like the FDIC anyway as it functions like a kind of watchdog over the banks, who need every bit of regulation we can possibly conjure, although it's clear their influence is pretty weak.

Muhammad Rasheed - Abdur Rasheed wrote: "Banks were and ARE in the business of making money WITH money."

Our society does not need an institution like that among us. That concept has proven to be predatory in human history and has only caused harm. A bank should not have that ability. They should hold my money, guard it, and enable me to make easy and convenient financial transactions in society period. They should collect fees from regular banking services like any other admin-like business, and be a small little outfit like the independent accounting office.

Abdur Rasheed - Muhammad wrote: "So, I repeat, all the Panics from 1873 up to the 1907 one were actually caused by the banks themselves."

ALL panics, recessions, depressions, economic down turns, were caused by the BANKS and the unstable prices of commodities, artificially flooding markets, with certain commodities to artificially manipulate prices causing bubbles that ALWAYS pop. The gold standard didn't change ANYTHING.

The same shit we went through then...we go through right NOW...

Except...

When we were on the gold standard there was no such thing as Social Security.

If you were old you lost ALL of your money in your bank....start digging that grave gramps.

There was NO such thing as unemployment insurance.

If you worked for one of the 15,000 businesses that closed...TOUGH!

The US didn't have enough gold reserves to support these programs.

There were ZERO protections for bank depositors.

Like i said before If you were one of the first people to get in line to get your money back IF they didn't lock the damn doors you may have been good. If not you better start digging holes next to that old motherfucker.

They say that the recession in 2007 was the worst economic condition that this country went through since the great depression.

That is a fact, but if you look at the actual data side by side its hard to make a case that we were better off back then.

The unemployment rate peaked at 34% in 1929.


As opposed to 10% in 2009.


Being an American means that I have the freedom to rise or fall based on my own motivation, but it also gives me the security that says that i shouldn’t have to start digging my own grave when it all goes down beyond my control. If I am gainfully employed and I quit to join the circus or to "make it" as an actor then I DON'T qualify for unemployment insurance.

You have yet to show a fact base example where life was better under the gold standard.

There has never been a 100% free market in this country or anywhere else.

It SOUNDS noble that businesses fail unless you are one of the 3 million people in this country dependent upon the auto manufacturing industry.

Free market solutions always sound good when they affect other people and not us.

"Fuck THEM!!"

Unless I need help!

Then it's,

"HELP ME!"

Banks going out of business doesn't only effect the Banks. The banks ONLY way to get money back then was from deposits from individuals and businesses.

Going out of business was a BIG DEAL for everybody.

Multiply that times HALF the banks in the country at the same time.

You best believe that EVERYBODY who could withdraw all of their money out did so whether their bank was going out of business or not.

The banks that had stable investments (loans) did well or survived even after the depositors took out all of their money.

Like i started this long ass conversation with saying: the economy is simply the flow of money.

They say that fiat money is worthless, but that's not entirely accurate.

Your countries currency is backed by your countries credit and your ability to pay loans.

A countries ability to pay back its loans is directly linked to either it's exports or its wealth. Exports being more tangible. (See: Kuwait Dinar)

If you are in a third world country and all you have is sand and mountains and you print a trillion dollar bill with a picture of you riding a Tonton...you might as well wipe your ass with it.

If you are a third world country and sitting on the largest Lithium supply in the world...your dollar is worth some shit and it will put you on the map as the civilized world NEEDS Lithium.

Gold is NOT widely used in industry mainly because it is just too damn expensive and there are MANY other cheaper options.

Nobody can afford the cost to add gold to their product at $22,400 per pound and stay competitive and if they HAD too (and nobody HAS TOO) they would actively seek to get that shit out of their product to increase their profits and beat out their competition and as SOON as they found a NON GOLD option...all of their competitors would reverse engineer their product and get the need for gold out of their product too...or go bankrupt.

The ONLY difference in a product that MUST HAVE GOLD IN IT is if it is required by government contract in the RFP.

RFP = Request For Proposal

Which means: I am a contract manager for information systems for the Government and my job is to select a contractor to build reliable government satellites. I am obligated to use the lowest bidder so i get all of the requirements (specs) for the satellite that I need to have build with the engineering and design team and i put together a Request For Proposal package to send out to all the contractors who build satellites or space suits or whatever to ensure that ALL of the contractors are on the same page and looked at the same requirements for fairness.

RFP packages, depending upon the complexity of the project (and satellites are pretty complicated) can be several volumes and each are twice the size of a phone book. In the RFP it asks for itemized pricing for all the bidders and it sets specific "MUST HAVE" guidelines. In the private sector they must have guidelines are usually things line must have original manufactures replacement parts. That way a contractor can't buy some cheap crap just to win the bid and try and beat it into place to get the knock off part to fit.

In the government sector the RFP will say something like "This portion must be made out of 99.9% pure gold so that all of the contractors are required to use gold. I guarantee you that it's because the government project manager's bosses, bosses, boss is a Congressman from the great state of who gives a shit who has a strong tie with the gold broker's lobbyist.

The cost of Gold is to artifically inflated (like guns) to be practical even if it was useful to more people than just government contractors.

I'm not the only person on earth who knows this. It has value because they place value on it no different than fiat money.

Rah

Abdur Rasheed - Muhammad wrote: "Stop. I didn't say at any point that we should establish a gold standard AND do away with FDIC insurance.

DID I????

Didn't I BEGIN this thread saying I favored an eclectic mix of policies that would work best for everybody? SO where did you pull THAT shit from? Strawman land??? Stick to what I am ACTUALLY arguing, please. Thank you."


The FED and the FDIC work hand and hand, Sir!

The "Evil" FED is a private company that operates as some secret shadow organization that prints all of our money and stole all of our gold all under the fake guise of "Federal" which misleads the uninformed into thinking that it is a government agency.

To help with this massive con job the chairman of the fed is appointed by the President of the United States.

And so is the FDIC.

Except that the President appoints 3 out of 6 board members who are then confirmed by congress.

The FDIC has $1.3 TRILLION dollars, which is enough to give every American adult $6000,

Not a total of $1.3 TRILLION, but JUST IN NEW YORK ALONE.

Where do you think that money comes from?

Clean living and prayer?

FED, Sir.

They get a portion of EVERY bank fee under The FED.

Abdur Rasheed - Muhammad Rasheed wrote regarding banks investing money to make money: "Our society does not need an institution like that among us. That concept has proven to be predatory in human history and has only caused harm. A bank should not have that ability. They should hold my money, guard it, and enable me to make easy and convenient financial transactions in society period. They should collect fees from regular banking services like any other admin-like business, and be a small little outfit like the independent accounting office."

Ok.

I'll call them and let them know.

So what happens when your payments are late from your buggy whip sales and you dont have the cash on hand to buy more kangaroo leather to make more?

Should every business go bankrupt every month through no fault of their own?

Do you never buy a house or a car unless you can cash one out?

Even WITH the highest sub prime interest rate on a home for your family you STILL put more money toward ownership than RENTING. How long will it take you to save and cash out a $150,000 house (which is $18,000 LESS than the national average cost of a house?)

20 years? How much is rent for 20 years at $1000 a month?

$1000 times 12 = $12,000 times 20 years = $240,000 you THREW AWAY because you hate banks lending money?

WAIT??

Who has time left in their life span to pay for their house AND a rental property?

There will be no houses to rent.

[shrugs]

Here you go!

http://www.practicalsurvivor.com/leanto

I don't know why I don't get all of my financial ideas from you!

Tell us more...

Rah

Abdur Rasheed - Muhammad Rasheed wrote: “Okay, what facts demonstrate that gold has no value? It was used as the official backing of the nation's currency under the gold standard, and now out from under the gold standard it is still considered valuable by people...showed off, traded, invested, hoarded... everything you do with something of value. Even our mutual enemy, the Federal Reserve itself, has no such illusion, and keeps a big chunk of their assets in gold. These are the facts that demonstrate gold's very real value. Which facts of yours show otherwise?”

ALL of your “facts” that are supposed to be demonstrating the “REAL VALUE OF GOLD” are just the misguided symptoms of the arbitrary value placed on gold, Muhammad. Stevie Wonder can see that!

What are my FACTS that show that gold has no practical value?

You can’t positively prove a NEGATIVE, Skippy. The burden is on YOU to prove that it HAS VALUE other than you scrolling through your wiki page saying, “See it named industry”.

I said that it’s just a shiny rock with an artificially assigned value with no real purpose other than “What people say it’s worth” that varies from the time of the day and that you could go the rest of your life without it and it wouldn’t affect you ONE BIT.

The gold brokers that sell it say the exact same shit except THEY don’t try and make a practical value where there is NONE like you (and Mr. wiki). They just say, “It’s shiny and worthless but who cares. Buy it anyway.

http://www.frumforum.com/golds-value-its-what-we-give-it/

“I won’t rehearse the myriad examples of how gold has been an integral part of human history – that topic could fill libraries. The point is that practical use is not the same thing as value where human society is concerned. Of what practical use is silver, upon which the Spanish built an empire? What can you do with a diamond, or any precious stone for that matter? What is the practical use for a bouquet of roses? Value is not often a function of utility
.
Gold’s value, however irrational its basis, is that which human beings have ascribed to it since the dawn of history. There’s no special reason why gold, rather than asphalt, shouldn’t be used to pave driveways, or why blood diamonds shouldn’t be used as paperweights. But, however irrationally, humans don’t use them for these purposes. We consider them too valuable – so much so that entire governments are willing to pay $1,650 per ounce of gold.” - Brad Schaeffer

“BRAD SCHAFFER is co-founder and CEO of INFA Energy Brokers, LLC, an interdealer broker of complex energy derivatives, as well as founder and principal of Occam Capital Management, LLC, a private asset management firm. He is a veteran of the commodities markets since 1990 and is a frequent guest on CNBC and Fox Business News. He is also the author of the World War II novel Hummel's Cross, the story of a decorated Luftwaffe fighter pilot who risks his life to save a family of Jews from the Nazis during the height of the air war over Europe. A Chicago native, he lives in New Jersey.”

In other words, “It has no practical uses but so what buy it anyway.” – Gold Broker

I said get in it when it’s low and sell it when it's high and then get the fuck out of it.

“As I’ve said before, gold is, quite literally, good for nothing: it has no significant industrial uses (yes, it’s used in some electronics but there’s enough in a mall jewelry store for an entire year’s worth of iPhones) and can’t actually be used to buy anything either. Speculators can, indeed, get rich on gold but they need to figure out how to time the market. And nobody has ever devised a market-timing strategy for anything that works prospectively. (A retrospective one, of course, is quite easy.)”- Eli Lehrer responding to Brad Schaffer’s article

“Eli Lehrer is Vice President of Washington D.C. operations for the Heartland Institute.”

And this fucker works for the Koch brothers.
Name something that YOU use GOLD FOR BESIDES BEING A SHINY ROCK.

I’ll wait…

Muhammad Rasheed - Abdur Rasheed wrote: “
ALL panics, recessions, depressions, economic down turns, were caused by the BANKS and the unstable prices of commodities, artificially flooding markets, with certain commodities to artificially manipulate prices causing bubbles that ALWAYS pop. The gold standard didn't change ANYTHING. The same shit we went through then...we go through right NOW...”

There’s a certain amount of ‘instability’ in prices caused normally just by the flow of business through supply & demand for goods and services. The banks use that as a screen to do their dirt by. The rest is 100% true.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: “Except... When we were on the gold standard there was no such thing as Social Security. If you were old you lost ALL of your money in your bank....start digging that grave gramps. There was NO such thing as unemployment insurance. If you worked for one of the 15,000 businesses that closed...TOUGH! There were ZERO protections for bank depositors. The US didn't have enough gold reserves to support these programs.”

It sounds like you are saying that if we don’t use the fiat system then there is no other solution. That’s it’s the ONLY way. Considering Keynesian economic policies have been the only ones in effect for the last 100 years, designed around the favored practices of the Money Trust, how could you argue from that direction so definitively? Under a strong/robust economy and a strong USD backed by a commodity instrument of gold, whose value was increasing steadily just as it is currently weakening steadily, how can you tell that an alternate program[s] couldn’t be put in place to solve those kinds of problems? Especially in partnership with other companies?

Abdur Rasheed wrote: “They say that the recession in 2007 was the worst economic condition that this country went through since the great depression. That is a fact, but if you look at the actual data side by side its hard to make a case that we were better off back then.”

I’m arguing that the gold standard was a better tool for a successful society, particularly in the long term, than the fiat system is. I’m not arguing that the Industrial Revolution era gave Americans a better standard of living than the Information Age.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: “The unemployment rate peaked at 34% in 1929. As opposed to 10% in 2009.”

Yes, the 1929 Stock Market Crash wiped out a lot of businesses like a hurricane. Investment policies of today probably did develop safe guards and new protection techniques learned specifically from that event.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: “Being an American means that I have the freedom to rise or fall based on my own motivation, but it also gives me the security that says that i shouldn’t have to start digging my own grave when it all goes down beyond my control. If I am gainfully employed and I quit to join the circus or to "make it" as an actor then I DON'T qualify for unemployment insurance.”

No argument.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: “You have yet to show a fact base example where life was better under the gold standard.”


The Money Trust’s fiat system appears to actually hold down and ‘control’ economic growth in addition to weakening the economy over time. Pay particular attention to the paragraph that starts out “Promptly gold reassumed its primacy of place…”

Muhammad Rasheed - Abdur Rasheed wrote: “There has never been a 100% free market in this country or anywhere else."

I know. Almost from the beginning monopolies and cartels and other sabotaging influences have restricted it to our detriment. It works in small segments... like at the beginning of a brand new industry before the greedy swoop in, and that's where it can be studied and shown to function in the people's benefit.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: “It SOUNDS noble that businesses fail unless you are one of the 3 million people in this country dependent upon the auto manufacturing industry. Free market solutions always sound good when they affect other people and not us.”

Not all businesses… just THAT one, if it doesn’t act right. Government protections should go to aid the victim customers, not bailout the fraudulent business.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: “Banks going out of business doesn't only effect the Banks. The banks ONLY way to get money back then was from deposits from individuals and businesses. Going out of business was a BIG DEAL for everybody. Multiply that times HALF the banks in the country at the same time.”

Knowing the bank will use the money you trust it to safeguard for you on risky speculation schemes and financial industry manipulation that, like clockwork, blowup in their faces, should be a part of your summary. Gambling schemes along with attempts to rig the game in their favor is the bottom line to what they do… what they want to do even when restrained by regulation. The people should have a right not to be a part of that if they don’t want to, but still patronize a basic level establishment in which their money is safe. ACTUALLY safe.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: “You best believe that EVERYBODY who could withdraw all of their money out did so whether their bank was going out of business or not.”

Yes. That’s what a bank run is all about.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: “The banks that had stable investments (loans) did well or survived even after the depositors took out all of their money.”

How could a loan be “stable?” It’s instable by its nature. There can be a stable investment climate, or a measure of stability based on the experience of past performance, but how is the loan instrument supposed to be a stable one when the variables and risks the lender has to deal with are well known? Please explain.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: “Like i started this long ass conversation with saying: the economy is simply the flow of money.”

The economy is how a society uses its resources. A finite amount of resources that can be used for other things, supply & demand is how a society determines how those resources are divided. That is what the economy is.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: “They say that fiat money is worthless, but that's not entirely accurate.”

I didn’t say it was worthless, I said it wasn’t backed up by anything tangible. It used to be backed up by the promise of the Federal Reserve and the US government to uphold it and maintain its integrity. Since that promise was broken by devaluing it, now it is upheld by the peoples’ confidence in it.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: “Your countries currency is backed by your countries credit and your ability to pay loans. A countries ability to pay back its loans is directly linked to either it's exports or its wealth. Exports being more tangible. (See: Kuwait Dinar)”

Give me an example of a country’s wealth that is less tangible than a foreign country’s currency, please.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: “If you are in a third world country and all you have is sand and mountains and you print a trillion dollar bill with a picture of you riding a Tonton...you might as well wipe your ass with it.”

Was the bill made out of sand and mountain? What about the tauntaun?

Abdur Rasheed wrote: “If you are a third world country and sitting on the largest Lithium supply in the world...your dollar is worth some shit and it will put you on the map as the civilized world NEEDS Lithium.”

There was a time period recently when the Russian bank Afghanistan was connected to was deliberately over printing the afghani (AFN) to buy off the warlords. With over 100 trillion afghani in circulation watering down the currency, it took tens of thousands of AFN to match one USD. A new leader came and cancelled all of those notes, severing the relationship with the Russian bank. Today their currency trades 57.29 against one USD.

Muhammad Rasheed - Abdur Rasheed wrote: “The FED and the FDIC work hand and hand, Sir! The "Evil" FED is a private company that operates as some secret shadow organization that prints all of our money and stole all of our gold all under the fake guise of "Federal" which misleads the uninformed into thinking that it is a government agency. To help with this massive con job the chairman of the fed is appointed by the President of the United States. And so is the FDIC. Except that the President appoints 3 out of 6 board members who are then confirmed by congress. The FDIC has $1.3 TRILLION dollars, which is enough to give every American adult $6000, Not a total of $1.3 TRILLION, but JUST IN NEW YORK ALONE. Where do you think that money comes from? Clean living and prayer? FED, Sir. They get a portion of EVERY bank fee under The FED.”

I’m not even sure what you’re supposed to be arguing here.

The Federal Reserve is a private corporation, made up of ten other private banks, that operates in partnership with the US government. It works in partnership with the US gov. I must’ve said that a million times in this and in past threads. Are you having this discussion with ME or with a shadowy orthodox Libertarian figure in your head (no doubt stuffed full of straw) that you insist is telling you things that I have not?

I said I approve of a concept like the FDIC that is supposed to be an ‘internal affairs’ type watchdog org.

Muhammad Rasheed - Abdur Rasheed wrote: “Ok. I'll call them and let them know.”

Smh lol

Abdur Rasheed wrote: “So what happens when your payments are late from your buggy whip sales and you dont have the cash on hand to buy more kangaroo leather to make more? Should every business go bankrupt every month through no fault of their own?”

You can get a loan from one of your business partners. Or if the bank is to be granted that ability, it needs to only have a one-time account transaction fee. No interest. NO predatory financial practices of any kind.

Muhammad Rasheed - Abdur Rasheed wrote: “ALL of your “facts” that are supposed to be demonstrating the “REAL VALUE OF GOLD” are just the misguided symptoms of the arbitrary value placed on gold, Muhammad. Stevie Wonder can see that!”

So my facts… the demonstrated history of several human civilizations in which gold has never been discarded as a worthless commodity, versus your talking heads claiming that gold has no value? Talking head opinions are supposed to trump the demonstrated facts of history?

How does that work exactly?

Muhammad Rasheed - "If the United States returned to the gold standard and then faced an economic crisis, the government would not be permitted to use monetary policy (such as injecting stimulus money into the economy) to avert financial disaster. Similarly, the government would no longer have the option of creating money in order to fund a war."


Abdur Rasheed - Muhammad Rasheed wrote: "Abdur Rasheed wrote: “ALL of your “facts” that are supposed to be demonstrating the “REAL VALUE OF GOLD” are just the misguided symptoms of the arbitrary value placed on gold, Muhammad. Stevie Wonder can see that!”

So my facts… the demonstrated history of several human civilizations in which gold has never been discarded as a worthless commodity, versus your talking heads claiming that gold has no value? Talking head opinions are supposed to trump the demonstrated facts of history?

How does that work exactly?"

Is THAT what you got from that?

The gold brokers agree with you that the value of gold relies solely upon its history that everybody always loves it. They also agree that THAT is all the value it has.

And they sell the shit.

You're saying that gold is so stable because, "come on man...it's gold."

I'm just saying that is NO better than saying, "come on man...its paper money."

The artificial value of gold is not worth backing up our currency on.

It's STILL just a house of cards.

And again...History and Facts don't always jive.

As long as gold is just a want and not a need...it will have no true value.

"Name something you use gold for besides being a shiny rock."

I'm still waiting...

Muhammad Rasheed - Abdur Rasheed wrote: "You're saying that gold is so stable because, 'come on man...it's gold.'  I'm just saying that is NO better than saying, 'come on man...its paper money.'"

But there have been numerous times when paper money has been abandoned where the peoples' trust plummeted. Where were the times when it did that over gold? If gold isn't actually valuable, and only arbitrarily imbued with that quality, show me where in history it was treated as worthless.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: "Name something you use gold for besides being a shiny rock."

Me? There's gold in my computer. "Gold can be found in almost all the components of a computer. These computer components include the motherboard, processor, extension cards, and the memory DIMMs." ~ www.tomshardware.com

Also in my cell phone. "43% of total production of gold in the whole world is used in electronics. Can’t believe? But its true. And its also true that cell phones have big quantity of gold in them.  If you open a cell phone, you can see gold plated connectors and pins. If you look at its motherboard, you will know that it is gold plated." ~ Gold Recovery Techniques

Muhammad Rasheed - Abdur Rasheed wrote: "The artificial value of gold is not worth backing up our currency on."

Even though the economy was stronger when we did? Then what would make it worth it if not that?

Abdur Rasheed wrote: "As long as gold is just a want and not a need...it will have no true value."

I need my computer and phone. I use them for stuff.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: "They also agree that THAT is all the value it has."

Gold has very specific elemental properties unique to it that give it its value. It's not just a chunk of yellowish concrete.

Muhammad Rasheed - Interestingly, former Chairman of the Federal Reserve Alan Greenspan was a highly vocal supporter of the gold standard back in the 1960s, then he got the Chairman appointment. He stopped being so vocal about the gold standard publicly while he was in that role, but many point out he did his best to link the dollar to the price of gold as close as he could so it would almost function as if we were on the gold standard. Combined with his lending support to Clinton's 1993 deficit reduction program, this was responsible for the stronger economic times experienced during the 1990s.

“We have at this particular stage a fiat money which is essentially money printed by a government and it’s usually a central bank which is authorized to do so. Some mechanism has got to be in place that restricts the amount of money which is produced, either a gold standard or a currency board, because unless you do that all of history suggest that inflation will take hold with very deleterious effects on economic activity… There are numbers of us, myself included, who strongly believe that we did very well in the 1870 to 1914 period with an international gold standard.” ~Alan Greenspan (2011)


Abdur Rasheed - Muhammad's web site wrote: "Collect any gold-containing metal scraps to which you have access, including jewelry, computer processors, old telephone wiring or gold tooth crowns. Keep in mind that outdated electronics are likelier to produce parts with a high enough level of gold to make the procedure worthwhile.

This is the gold I collected in a bucket over three months.

Sort the gold into circuits that need cleaning, gold plated parts, gold plated pins, gold fingers, and solid gold large and small. Use a magnet to separate all gold plated steel this needs a different process than I am demonstrating."

"There you have it gold from electronics, one troy Oz is 480 grains and I have 576.5 grains or somewhere between 600 and 1600 bucks for three months work. I think I will retire."

Three months of collecting a ton of electronics, teeth, old telephone wiring, cleaning, desolving, acid cleaning, for a little over an ounce.

"Keep in mind that outdated electronics are likelier to produce parts with a high enough level of gold to make the procedure worthwhile."

You mean they use LESS gold now than they used to since the price was artificially inflated times a factor of 4.

Interesting.

Abdur Rasheed - Muhammad wrote: "Interestingly, former Chairman of the Federal Reserve Alan Greenspan was a highly vocal supporter of the gold standard back in the 1960s, then he got the Chairman appointment. He stopped being so vocal about the gold standard publicly while he was in that role, but many point out he did his best to link the dollar to the price of gold as close as he could so it would almost function as if we were on the gold standard. Combined with his lending support to Clinton's 1993 deficit reduction program, this was responsible for the stronger economic times experienced during the 1990s."

1. So any strong economic news we have had in the USA since the fiat system was sorta kinda linked to the "gold standard" if you look at it as you squint real hard in a dark room.

2. If there was a weak economy it is because of the fiat system.

3. If it was BAD DURING the gold standard it was because of the banks.

4. If it was good during the Gold Standard years it was because of the Gold Standard (of course).

5. Greenspan rocks.

If I follow these simple steps then it makes perfect sense.

Muhammad Rasheed - Abdur Rasheed wrote: "1. So any strong economic news we have had in the USA since the fiat system was sorta kinda linked to the "gold standard" if you look at it as you squint real hard in a dark room."

Are you going to counter or make fun of it? 'Cause if making fun of it IS your counter, then I win.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: "2. If there was a weak economy it is because of the fiat system."

Yup. So weak that it would cause, say, a Great Depression. Or something similar, like say, a Great Recession.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: "3. If it was BAD DURING the gold standard it was because of the banks."

Exactly.

A-Rah wrote: "ALL panics, recessions, depressions, economic down turns, were caused by the BANKS and the unstable prices of commodities, artificially flooding markets, with certain commodities to artificially manipulate prices causing bubbles that ALWAYS pop."

Muhammad Rasheed - Abdur Rasheed wrote: "You mean they use LESS gold now than they used to since the price was artificially inflated times a factor of 4. Interesting."

What's interesting is if it lacked value as you claimed, it wouldn't be in our electronics at all. If you open your phone up, how much paper money will you find shoved up in there do you think?

Abdur Rasheed - Muhammad wrote: "What's interesting is if it lacked value as you claimed, it wouldn't be in our electronics at all. If you open your phone up, how much paper money will you find shoved up in there do you think?"

No.
A microscopic amount of gold (and getting less and less every new generation of electronics per the articles" PLUS the fact that it never goes anywhere means that it is headed for the down slop.

1. It's non consumable so it will be here forever.

2. Everybody is ALWAYS mining it all over the world

3. It isn't used for shit except what the gold lobby pays companies to use.

The TRUE VALVUE of Gold is the same War machine that you are against.

"Increasing pressure on electronics companies to ensure that their products do not contain illicit minerals from the killing fields in eastern Congo is beginning to have a significant impact. With bills on conflict minerals moving through Congress, the electronics industry has spent about $2 million per month lobbying Senate offices to relax the legislation, which would increase transparency in the supply chains for tin, tantalum, and tungsten, or
the 3Ts.1 These mineral ores, as well as gold, are key elements of electronics products including cell phones and personal computers, and also are the principal source of revenue for armed groups and military units that prey on civilians in eastern Congo. Congo’s mineral wealth did not spark the conflict in eastern Congo, but war profiteering has become the fuel that keeps the
region aflame and lies beneath the surface of major regional tensions."

They put the shit in electronics because the lobbyist PAY THEM TOO.


Abdur Rasheed wrote: "1. So any strong economic news we have had in the USA since the fiat system was sorta kinda linked to the "gold standard" if you look at it as you squint real hard in a dark room."

Muhammad wrote: "Are you going to counter or make fun of it? 'Cause if making fun of it IS your counter, then I win."

Abdur wrote: "I have a poke a dot unicorn in my basement."

Muhammad wrote: "Did you just say that you...have a DAMN POKE A DOT UNICORN in your damn basement???"

Abdur wrote: "I WIN!"

k

Whatever gets your victory fist up, Bro!

Abdur Rasheed - Rule UPDATE*

1. Strong economic news while we were NOT on the gold standard is because of the gold standard. I didn't think that I needed to couter that because....uuuuummmm...it doesnt make any damn sense.

Maybe you should read them all again and see the holes in your logic Muhammad.

If you have a theory then you try and prove or disprove it and see what the FACTS say.

I WANT TO BELIEVE THAT THE GOLD STANDARD WAS BETTER, but what I WANT doesn't matter. Lets see what the FACTS SAY and see if it fits.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: "2. If there was a weak economy it is because of the fiat system."

Muhammad wrote: "Yup. So weak that it would cause, say, a Great Depression. Or something similar, like say, a Great Recession."

OK. So There were NO depressions, recessions or great recessions under the Gold Standard??

Yes there were PLENTY.

Then the fiat system or the gold standard doesn't matter and is NOT the reason for a bad economy.

Right? ISN'T THAT what the facts say??

Abdur Rasheed wrote: "3. If it was BAD DURING the gold standard it was because of the banks."

Muhammad wrote: Exactly because "A-Rah wrote: "ALL panics, recessions, depressions, economic down turns, were caused by the BANKS and the unstable prices of commodities, artificially flooding markets, with certain commodities to artificially manipulate prices causing bubbles that ALWAYS pop."

THAT is the point. the Gold Standard doesn't help at ALL. What IS the point?

Why don't you put a vote button on this thing to see how many people you have convinced to join your revolution so that we can wrap this thing up.

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