Thursday, April 30, 2015

HeroTalk: Master Spy Files

Red Skew - Go to bed!

MRasheed - It's 8:40am. I just got to work.

YOU go to bed.

Red Skew - Where are you?


MRasheed - I'm in Kuwait.

Red Skew - Oh shit. Well Good Morning to you sir. Ha!

MRasheed - Thanks.

What time is it in CA?

Red Skew - 10:40PM

MRasheed - Yeah, YOU go to bed.

Red Skew - Believe me. I am soon. Got to work early.

I'm an old man.

Muhammad Rasheed - Are you following that Karl Eburne thread?

Red Skew - Nah, whats going on?

MRasheed - Here, read this... [Karl Eburne - dossier]

MRasheed - That's the beginning of a long and interesting thread discussion.

Red Skew - Uh oh, that would start something.

MRasheed - I wanted to ask you to copy/paste whatever JR posted in it in this PM, because I can't read him. He's invisible since he blocked me awhile ago.

Red Skew - JR blocked me for a while because I posted about Bill Maher, but then he was back a few days later. Not sure if I'm blocked again.

MRasheed - He blocked me in '08 or '09.

I was nice in those days. lol

At least on FB.

Red Skew - Oh, mine was more recent.

I think I"m very nice on FB in the face outright bigots.

MRasheed - I know he was still mad at me for daring to point out that Jews sometimes do things that are wrong.

Red Skew - Y'know how that goes.

MRasheed - Apparently that means I'm an anti-Semite for not being willing to pretend they are eternally squeaky clean no matter what.

The crazy part is that I was actually talking about a notorious gangster. lol

Red Skew - I know. I got blasted for attacking Bibi Netanyahu.

MRasheed - "Wait... so I can't point out that a notorious murderous gangster happened to be Jewish (and VERY pro-Israel) without being labeled an anti-Semi--!"


Red Skew - I'd block your Jew hating ass too!!!!

MRasheed - Calm down!!

Red Skew - Sarcasm for the NSA if you're reading this.

MRasheed - lol Anyway, he said something in Karl's thread that some people consider very insightful, and I want to see it.

MRasheed - Scroll through that thread of Karl's for me and copy/paste what JR said, please.

Red Skew - My ex father in law was NSA, and he used to swear that they didn't listen in on Americans. I knew he was lying then.

Okay, hold on.

Red Skew - Sorry the link is saying content in unavailable.

MRasheed - Karl's not a friend of yours...?

Red Skew - Nope.

Red Skew - Dont know him from Mshindo.

MRasheed - ???

Are you a commie?

MRasheed - Wait... you are.

Red Skew - Marxist.

Dont label me with that Lenin shit.

MRasheed - Psh. Whatever. lol

Red Skew - Ha!

MRasheed - See if you can find the thread by lurking on his Timeline.

Red Skew - Okay I'll go lurk.

Red Skew - I'm on his page, but it only allows me to see his latest post. Not the one you're referencing.

MRasheed - Send Karl a friend request, please. Were you really just going to stop right there? What kind of Marxist spy ARE you??? Get your game up.

Red Skew - Sorry man, I've been corrupted by the west with Weed, White Women and sunny Weather!! DAS KAPITAL save me!

MRasheed - hahahaha

I guess the turnover for that line of work WOULD be pretty high...

Red Skew - Yeah, Marxist spy isn't the most lucrative career.

MRasheed - Marxist Handler: "And you, Comrade, will be assigned duty in Los Angeles, CA."

Red Skew: "YES!"

Red Skew: "I mean... I will do my best, comrade."

Red Skew - Exactly.

MRasheed - lol

Red Skew - Well sir. I am off to bed. I'll chat with you later.


MRasheed - Are you Karl's friend yet?

Don't lie to me or I'll know.

Red Skew - Yes, we are friends. Now what was it I was supposed to cut and paste for you?

MRasheed - Look in his thread, and steal for me the comments that JR posted.

MRasheed - Don't get caught.

Red Skew - Well, I thought we were friends, but he evidently hasn't approved me yet because I dont see him on my friends list.

MRasheed - What???

Your intelligence agent skills leave much to be desired.

Red Skew - Yeah, I'm a pointy head intellectual.

MRasheed - I see that I'm going to have to find myself a new Marxist spy.

You'll have to die now, of course.

Red Skew - I'll betray my Marxist brethren for a few gold pieces. If its good enough for Judas, its good enough for me.

MRasheed - You can't even get me the info I need.

At least Judas' mission was successful.

Red Skew - Yeah, but as a good capitalist wannabe I'm going to keep you on the hook by slowly releasing information.

MRasheed - Notice that so far you haven't given me a single word of the data I asked for.

Red Skew - Yes, but I'm selling you the dream.

MRasheed - I don't think we interpret "slowly releasing information" the same way...

Red Skew - Of course not, but that's the way of the spy game.

Haven't you seen James Bond?

MRasheed - Meh. Maybe.

So let me see... You've failed your spy mission, and you reference a film franchise as your point of training manual.

You know that makes you the Lionel Hutz of Marxist spies, right?

Red Skew - Ha!

Better than the Lou Costello of Marxist spies.

MRasheed - Now I have to find a new spy. Who else was in that thread...?

MRasheed - You couldn't even get in the thread, I KNOW you don't know who was in it. #worstSpyEver

I would ask Karl himself, but he can be kind of strict sometimes, and is probably one-half scandal away from deleting me...

Ah! Jeremy is in there! Very good. He works cheap.

MRasheed - *dials spy phone*

Red Skew - Of course Jeremy works cheap, he's a Bat boy.

MRasheed - Exactly. And I can probably get him to ice pick kill a couple of people before he leaves. Jeremy doesn't care.

Sh! It’s ringing...

Red Skew - Derp.

Red Skew - Well, I’m off to watch a little Television before bed. Take it easy brother Mo.

MRasheed - *sends assassins*

MRasheed - Jeremy!! Are you awake? I need your spy skills.

MRasheed - Jeremy? Wake up!!!

MRasheed - I require information for reasons most nefarious! Only your skills can accomplish this. Red Skew failed me miserably.

MRasheed - *hangs up*

MRasheed - *sends assassins*

MRasheed - Toddfather! I need your spy skills! Are you game?

Are you awake?

[eyes narrow]

MRasheed - Ishmiel!! Are you awake?

Ishmiel - Lol yea

I shouldn't be

MRasheed - Great! Are you FB Friends with Karl Eburne?

Ishmiel - Maybe

MRasheed – lol I need a "yes or no."

Ishmiel - Nope

MRasheed - Bah!!!

Ishmiel - Lol

MRasheed - >:(

Ishmiel - Should I be?

I think ive seen his name before..

MRasheed - Well... probably not, or I would've had to kill you if you failed this mission.

Anyway! Have a good night!

*dial tone*

Ishmiel - Lol ooooook

Ishmiel - [calls me back] What he do?

MRasheed - To be clear: I would've had to kill you because you would've known too much.

Ishmiel - You really feel like coming out here to snuff me. Nah

MRasheed - Heck no. I have a crack team of crackhead assassins on crack to do my light work.

They are very motivated.

Ishmiel - Im gonna take myself to bed to dream of young ladies and avoid crack ass ass ins

MRasheed - lol

Very well.

Good night!

Ishmiel - Night ill hit u up tomorrow

MRasheed - Hey, are you FB Friends with Karl Eburne by chance?

Scooter Alvarez - Nope why? We have mutual friends

MRasheed - I need a spy mission completed. Good spies are hard to come by it turns out.

Primarily because they're all asleep now, I guess. Lame ass spies.

Scooter Alvarez - You screenshots? Ok

MRasheed - Hm? No, I needed some info captured from a person who has blocked me.

Scooter Alvarez - Well, they probably blocked me too LOL

MRasheed - Hmmm... I seem to have successfully recruited an old nemesis of yours for this mission.

Scooter Alvarez - Ew who?

MRasheed - From The Order of Hotep.

Scooter Alvarez - Oh Gawd

MRasheed – lol @ "Ew who?"

Scooter Alvarez - There's so many LOL

MRasheed - I don't know how serious you all's eBeef was so I'm curious as to the audience reaction.

Because I'm a shit stirrer, I guess. *shrug*

C'est le vie!

MRasheed - The worst part of being the mastermind of a spy ring is the waiting. FYI

MRasheed - Your nemesis failed to negotiate the first hurdle. I was forced to destroy him.

MRasheed - Kenjii!! Are you FB Friends with Karl Eburne?

(why do these people go to bed so damn early?)

MRasheed - KENJII! Awaken! I require your spy skills!

MRasheed - Bah!!

Kenjji - Maybe but I dont know who that is

Ok yes but dont really know him wussup

MRasheed - There's this one thread he made that I need some information extracted for me.

Kenjji - Subject of thread

MRasheed – [Karl Eburne - dossier]

MRasheed - I need the posts that were written by "JR."

He is now invisible to me because of a "blocking episode" from way back.

Please copy-paste his comment[s] into this PM.

Kenjji - It won't let me access the thread

- Dammit.

MRasheed - Abort.

MRasheed - *sends assassins*

MRasheed - Deacon!! I require your Marxist spy skills post haste!!

Do you accept this mission? yes or no?

Deacon - No

MRasheed - OH, COME ON!!!

Deacon - maybe


MRasheed - I was blocked by fellow ex-HeroTalker "JR" a while back, but I require the stealing of his posts so that I may read them. The posts are located in the lair of a certain "Karl Eburne." Your mission...

...should you choose to accept it... to copy/paste these JR posts into this very PM.

Failure is not an option. You are not to be seen or caught.

Deacon[Deacon’s Personal Lockpicking Kit: Marxist Spy Edition]

MRasheed - What's all of this then...?

MRasheed - That's not what he posted!

Deacon - Sign in as me and spy to your heart's content

Deacon - just don't post under my name

MRasheed – Oh.




Deacon - It just made me change my Spy Code.....

It's now *******.

MRasheed - Deacon, I can't! It's asking for all kinds of personal security questions because of the alien IP Address! "Who is your Lord & Savior?" How am I supposed to know????

Do this spy mission for me, please, and I promise to be nicer.

MRasheed - Please?

Deacon - What thread are you interested in?

MRasheed - It's in here: [Karl Eburne - dossier]

MRasheed - Remember! Posts by JR.


Deacon - He's deleted the thread.

Deacon - The page you requested cannot be displayed right now. It may be temporarily unavailable, the link you clicked on may have expired, or you may not have permission to view this page.

MRasheed - Karl isn't in your Friend List...?

Deacon - No...Ask Jeremy....He liked one of his comments.

MRasheed - Jeremy is either sleep or dead. My spies haven't confirmed which yet.

Okay. Well, thanks anyway.

MRasheed - *sends assassins*

Deacon - Remember you promised to be nice

And don't give out my Spy Kit.

MRasheed - (hmmm... what's the code to counter the "No weapon formed against me will prosper" charm...?)


Good night, Deac!

(heh heh heh)

Deacon - Shalom

MRasheed - Peace. :)

MRasheed[hears noise on roof]

Jeremy611 - What, fool-assed fool?!

Jeremy611 - What are you going on about now?!

MRasheed - I see you have survived the assassins.


MRasheed - I'll give you another chance at this delicate mission.

Jeremy611 - Speak, fool!

MRasheed – Read this: [Karl Eburne - dossier]

Go into this thread and extract some information for me.

The one called "JR" blocked me some time ago and has become invisible. Your mission...

...should you choose to accept it... to copy/paste/send his post[s] into a PM.

Jeremy611 - OK, here goes...

MRasheed - Excellent. Be careful. Do not get caught.
Jeremy611 - He must have deleted his posts because I cannot see them either.

MRasheed - Are you also blocked? This was my only clue of his presence… [Michael Contreras wrote: "J.R.'s points are valid."]

Jeremy611 - I remember that JR posted something, I don't remember what it was, but I did see it before. Therefore, he must have deleted his comments because he had no reason to block me, everyone loves me.

MRasheed - I see. He's even sneakier than I thought. Very well.

I didn't get what I was after, but you at least followed the mission to the end of the trail, making you a superior spy to all of your peers.

*wires $15,000.00 to jeremy611's account*

MRasheed - I'll be in touch.

Jeremy611 - Yay!

MRasheed - *answers ringing spy phone*

The Toddfather - I am awake now...S'up? 

MRasheed - Do you remember that thread from Karl Eburne?

The Toddfather - Saw it but didn't get a chance to read it...

MRasheed - It's okay. The info I was trying to get you to retrieve has been deleted.

The Toddfather - Ah...fighting some Facebook Battles Bro???

MRasheed - No, just some international data trafficking. lol

The Toddfather - Ha!!!! Even better...LOL!!

MRasheed - This particular person blocked me a while ago, and I wanted to see what he said. I wouldn't have known he had posted in the thread if someone hadn't talked to him directly in it.

But alas. He removed what he said. [eyes narrow]

Eventually he'll make a mistake. Get sloppy.

And I'll be there.

The Toddfather - LMFAO!!!!


See Also

HeroTalk: Master Spy Files 

Zeppo the Killer Clown by M. Rasheed 

Popeye versus Hulk by M. Rasheed

Artifacts of the Black Superheroes 

HEROTALK BATTLES: The Top BSH Fighters Battle for Supremacy! by M. Rasheed

The Official Handbook of the HEROTALK UNIVERSE

Herotalk Archives: Sketch Challenges and Miscellaneous Images 

Herotalk Interviews by John Crosby (JC2.0): #9 MRasheed

The Champion of the Universe: Victim of Fight Game Corruption 

BOOK REVIEW – The Asin Adventures: The Lands of Darke

Tuesday, April 28, 2015

Revenge of the American Aborigine?

Chuck Savage - Yea !!! Fuck You Cowboys !!!

Muhammad Rasheed - Whoa.

Muhammad Rasheed - What are you? Native American?

Chuck Savage - Nah Italian American. But after the Lions getting knocked out of the playoffs by them, happy to see Green Bay win. Also any team that self-proclaims themselves as "Americas Team"... are douche bags.

Muhammad Rasheed - TRANSLATION: "Blah, blah, blah football blah, blah, blah football."

Chuck Savage - Boooooo

Muhammad Rasheed - hahahaha

The Respectable Politics of the Token Black

Muhammad Rasheed - The Wiki definition of "respectability politics" left me with more questions than answers. Primarily because of what they are tracing/linking it to, compared to what modern black political writers are describing it as.

Tell me which of these is actually correct, please. Is respectability politics:

a) The effort to downplay the differences in your culture to demonstrate how much you have in common with the dominant group

b) Encouraging the abandonment of your culture to take on that of the dominant group ("brown-skinned Barbie")

c) Telling members of your culture that if only they will perform XYZ, the dominant group will like them

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - C is the closest. I think the other two are more about assimilation

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - The best example is " you cant expect others to respect us when we kill each other" or "if not for hoodies sagging pants and thug culture those kids would not have died"

Muhammad Rasheed - I got you. I disagree with B being "assimilation" though, unless you mean some wack-a-doo extreme form in which you 100% lose your own identity, walking around wearing the mask of the other group member.

Muhammad Rasheed - The monkey wrench in C is apparent within my earlier Eddie Murphy/Harlem Nights post. They don't like you anyway, and only tolerate you when you live your life according to the way they want to see you perform on their terms. 

Doing ANTHING so that type of personality will like you is insane.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - Pretty much. Like brown skin barbie is cool but brown skin with blonde hair and blue eyes is a prob and more so if you no longer got love for things fron your own culture

Muhammad Rasheed - I used the "brown-skinned Barbie" not as a fashion statement, but as a societal archetype to represent the type of person who hates their own culture, and it is their fondest, semi-secret wish to actually BE one of the other group... in every way.

Dave Stephens - Is there a culture or subculture on the planet that DOESN'T have its own version of a Barbie?

Muhammad Rasheed - I'm more interested in why misdirection towards a band-aid effort of 'multiculturalism' involving the literal Barbie Doll by Mattel, Inc. is relevant to this topic concerning a philosophical concept in which "Barbie" was just used as a symbol.

Muhammad Rasheed - Dave, is this you sincerely trying to understand the topic discussion, or are you trying to sabotage/derail it? I can't tell which.

Dave Stephens - It's completely relevant – if every culture has its own version of Barbie, it stands to reason that having that hardly qualifies as abandoning...

Muhammad Rasheed - Are you talking about every culture having its own version of a popular doll, or the "multicultural" collectors' line from Barbie?

Dave Stephens - I'm sure there are better examples of disingenuous multiculturalism – but I understand this is way above my pay grade, so no worries.

Dave Stephens - No I'm not talking specifically about Mattel or whatever, just that concepts of unattainable beauty inevitably find their way into dolls and toys... I don't think it's avoidable I think it's inevitable.

Dave Stephens - I agree with Kamau about brown skin blue-eyed blonde hair Barbie.

Muhammad Rasheed - Despite the clueless myth of blacks having high self-esteem, they are in general severely psychologically damaged to dislike traditional African features because of the fruit of the white supremacist societal legacy that upholds euro-values and euro-beauty standards as 'normal.' The "brown barbie" concept comes from the extreme version of the resulting psychosis in which blacks will literally hate themselves and wish they were white, being perfectly happy to be the Token Black Face in the group of white people, pretending -- sadly -- they are just another white person among them. That's specifically what I was referring to; it didn't have anything to do with dolls in the literal sense.

Dave Stephens - I got that. I've seen that kind of self-hate exactly, represented here in San Diego at a Boys and Girls Club way back in the early 90s when I taught computer basics - as a reward for good behavior, I drew caricatures of some of the kids and it was deeply disturbing to me when one of the 8 year old African American girls asked to be drawn with blond hair and blue eyes... I'm sure I broke some kind of rule when I told her I was going to draw her how the good Lord made her, because God doesn't make mistakes... I got a few amen's from her friends, so I think that was the right approach.

Muhammad Rasheed - That's exactly the type of psychosis that's affecting the black community; a piece from several broken shards of racism's legacy. I know from the outside looking in it seems like we complain about it a lot and are always "playing the race card" as you all say. But the fact that that 8 year old baby is suffering the full force of the typical inferiority complex of our people, programmed into her from equally damaged parents, is a glimpse into the very reason why we complain. 

It won't be an easy fix, Dave, and it'll certainly take more than the election of a black president to do so.

Muhammad Rasheed - Telling us to "get over it," and condescendingly telling us "this won't help" when our frustrations inevitably reach a boiling point, isn't going to fix it either. That's actually how bitterness, resentments, and just more of the same are created.

Dave Stephens - What would help a lot would be thousands of police answering for their crimes instead of being protected by a horribly corrupt system - THAT would help immeasurably…

I am not anti-police, I am anti-getting away with murder, that's all.

Muhammad Rasheed - I would be crazy to be anti-police. I enjoy living in a technologically-advanced civilization, and abolishing the police force would give all of that up, pretty much overnight.

What I am is anti-police corruption, and anti-individual racism bias hidden behind the badge, and protected by a system that "understands" that bias and is willing to give it a pass because Black Lives don't Matter in that system.

Just Get Over It & We Promise To Accept You This Time

Muhammad Rasheed - They're not stupid, they just don't give a shit about you. They believe everything the tv said about black people, so they think you have no value. When you are killed they don't even blink; it literally means nothing. When the tension builds and erupts into local destruction then they shake their heads and coo about how this isn't helping anything, they feel bad for the things being destroyed, and in their mind it confirms that you were just a savage after all.

If only you were sweet and patiently long-suffering like that kid they celebrated as the Perfect Negro Archetype from The Blind Side film. But all of this complaining about ill treatment and getting angry and bringing up historic wrongs...? 

"What are we going to DO with you? Please calm down. This isn't helping. Will your people EVER grow up? My my... look at you. Just like a bunch of monkeys. Life is not fair, okay? You're just going to have to get over it."

Honestly, it's like they want us to hate and resent them. 

Clifton Hatchett - Brilliant. 

Cavadias Bryant - Awesome!!! 

Khalil MuMinun - I was talking to a co worker last night and came to the same conclusion about their perspectives. They don't care and wouldn't have it any other way no matter what you say 

Chris Jones - " they" think it's horrible that it's got to come to this in order to say that enough is enough.
" they" also think it could be counter productive by giving the police a reason to militarize and jeopardize more black lives.
There has got to be a better way.
Peiple like to make it black vs. white but its black and white vs. Blue. 

Muhammad Rasheed - Chris Jones wrote: “’they’ think it's horrible that it's got to come to this in order to say that enough is enough.”

That’s an odd thing to say considering so many of the European ethnic groups had to fight through revolutions and bloody battles of their own in order to achieve their societal rights. In fact, all of our riots have been pretty lightweight in comparison. I guess when black people do it though it magically becomes savage and jungle crazy, huh? Yeah, how horrible that it has to come to this when all we wanted was to be treated like humans in the first place. It sucks when centuries old wrongs still linger in an age in which people pretend that that mindset is primitive and no longer relevant.

Chris Jones wrote: “‘they’ also think it could be counter productive by giving the police a reason to militarize and jeopardize more black lives.”

I would consider that ironic considering when we aren’t rioting out of impotent frustration, the dominant mainstream’s leg breakers are shooting our babies dead because of society’s proven attitude that Black Lives just don’t Matter.

Chris Jones wrote: “There has got to be a better way.”

STEP ONE: Stop blaming the victims when they get mad. 

STEP TWO: Black society really should come together across all socio-economic class lines, the way they had no choice but to do during the jim crow era, and continue to a time when they developed their own economic power bloc that contributed to the whole. Black empowerment is the best of all better ways.

STEP THREE: Black society should join the international Technological Elite, with the average Black doctorate degree in math, science, tech instead of education or philosophy or whatever. Join the powerful moneyed class.

Chris Jones wrote: “Peiple like to make it black vs. white…”

This is America, right? It will always be about racism until we actively work to eradicate it from our land. Until we do so, in preference to pretending it doesn’t exist and getting irritated when the traditional victims complain about it, expect to continue to hear it.

Chris Jones wrote: “…but its black and white vs. Blue.”

The cops are the enforcement arm for the dominant mainstream group.

Chris Jones - My bad. I forgot. I'm automatically the enemy because I'm white, I can't relate because I'm white, I'm mainstream cop loving, racist, gay hating, dumb hillbilly cracker. I don't get to have an opinion as an American? We are both Americans, correct? We ( whether you agree) are in this together,
we have to figure it out together. Its ironic that I care enough about Black lives to want Black folk to not gave to live in more fear from police or rioters. Its bad enough as it is, you want more police running around in tanks and swat gear? I don't! Its counterproductive! 

Muhammad Rasheed - Chris Jones wrote: “My bad. I forgot. I'm automatically the enemy because I'm white…”

This is a strawman argument, and is the most common form of logical fallacy in a discussion. It is composed of the opponent creating a false argument that he pretends the other guy said, and arguing against it. At no time or place did I ever make the claim that all whites are my enemy. I don’t believe that. This isn’t an individual versus individual debate; this is a battle of ideologies. If the ideology that I’m arguing against happens not to belong to you, then what do you want? 

Chris Jones wrote: “…I can't relate because I'm white, I'm mainstream cop loving, racist, gay hating, dumb hillbilly cracker. I don't get to have an opinion as an American?”

I believe in the Freedom of Speech, Chris. Be free to speak your mind; we do not believe in censoring people and deleting threads on this Timeline. We do believe in challenging peoples’ claims and walking an argument down to its logical conclusion. If you are game then bring it. Throw down your rod. I will also throw down my rod and perhaps we will work hard in the effort to understand one another.

Chris Jones wrote: “We are both Americans, correct?”

I’m an American.

Chris Jones wrote: “We ( whether you agree) are in this together, we have to figure it out together.”

I’ve heard that concept before recently. Then as now I find the sentiment wanting. During the times of my people’s greatest troubles in this country, the kind-hearted among you were nowhere to be found. In the end we are always alone in the fight. 

Chris Jones wrote: “Its ironic that I care enough about Black lives to want Black folk to not gave to live in more fear from police or rioters.”

Do you?

Chris Jones wrote: “Its bad enough as it is, you want more police running around in tanks and seat gear? I don't.”

Did I say that I wanted that? What gave you the impression that I did? Should the same weird and insulting attitude that directed that comment towards me cause me to actually believe you don’t want that? Please explain. 

Chris Jones - In addition Mr. Rasheed. I think I need to add that I'm a fairly uneducated man ( my sentence structure shows that) but you seem an intelligent guy. So let me ask you one question.
Did you ever think to yourself, that this is what " they" wanted? 

Muhammad Rasheed - "This" being what exactly? 

Chris Jones - Since we are strangers. I would ask a mutual acquaintance about my motives.

You insulted an entire race by assuming " they" all were against equality. I simply wanted to explain a possible motive for their thinking other than being racist or uncaring.
You are welcome to ask about me or my motives. I spend everyday trying to level the playing field and due to these riots, inner city Baltimore schools are shut down. How's that progress?

Chris Jones - Watch how much the police budget grows and the public school budget shrinks now.
You and the mutual friends we share hold sway among young men and I ask that you show them the right way. You all are intelligent, articulate, stand up men and young black men look to you all for guidance. 

Muhammad Rasheed - Chris Jones wrote: “Since we are strangers. I would ask a mutual acquaintance about my motives.”

No thank you. I’m not hiring right now.

Chris Jones wrote: “You insulted an entire race by assuming " they" all were against equality.”

Tell me why you assumed that “they” referred to “the entire white race,” instead of just those members of that race (& friends) who subscribed to the ideology that I am arguing against, please. 

Chris Jones wrote: “I simply wanted to explain a possible motive for their thinking other than being racist or uncaring.”

Go for it. I’m listening. Be prepared to defend the position should I disagree. 

Chris Jones wrote: “You are welcome to ask about me or my motives.”

I am genuinely uninterested. Perhaps during our discussion it will actually become relevant to make a real point. Until then you may hold it in reserve.

Chris Jones wrote: “I spend everyday trying to level the playing field and due to these riots, inner city Baltimore schools are shut down. How's that progress?”

I agree that it is indeed a tragedy that any amount of progress needs to be set back because of the fundamental unfairness in society acting against the black people like a ticking time bomb. Naturally, I would consider working to find the root cause of the over-all issue, solving THAT problem, and them all the babystep band-aid progresses won’t be so easily swept aside. They will then become icing upon the cake of True Progress.

Muhammad Rasheed - Chris Jones wrote: “Watch how much the police budget grows and the public school budget shrinks now.”

I’m pretty sure it’s been doing that dance for a while now.

Chris Jones wrote: “You and the mutual friends we share hold sway among young men and I ask that you show them the right way. You all are intelligent, articulate, stand up men and young black men look to you all for guidance.”

I’m interested in zeroing in on programs that empower the youth economically to enable them to live great lives leaving poverty far behind. I would like to support those programs that have been proven to do so most efficiently.

Chris Jones - My friend has several groups in the works where I'm from. 
Everything from a gentlemen's academy for disadvantaged young black men, to a " hoods to the woods" hiking/camping mentorship program. 
Picking up a charge for vandalism or assault during a riot can't help the fight for equality. 
Just my opinion though. I appreciate the dialogue and meant no disrespect. Just trying to gain a better understanding of how my neighbors think and feel. 

Muhammad Rasheed - Chris Jones wrote: "Picking up a charge for vandalism or assault durig a riot can't help the fight for equality."

It turns out that getting shot because you wore a sweater with a hood on it to buy candy while black and consequently pissing off the community when the asshole that pulled the trigger walks isn't good for the fight for equality either. 

Chris, putting the attention on the effects instead of the cause will never win my support ever. When Party A oppresses and attacks Party B until the latter finally snaps, whining as to how can we stop Party B from snapping when frustrated, instead of directing ALL attention towards the root cause, is what my ideological enemy sounds like.

Muhammad Rasheed - I'm surprised you didn't challenge my "always alone in the fight" comment with the abolitionists and similar folk. 

Chris Jones - I've never attacked any party and the fact that you make it about party A and party B.
Is why the change has yet to come around.
Is every cop white? Is every cop a bad guy?
Do these aholes want black folk to riot in their own neighborhoods bringing more destruction and mayhem? 
Do they want to show certain pictures and label an entire demographic as " bad" or I've even heard rioters being revered to as "animals". WTH is that? You win your cause through people that are compassionate to your plight nit through fear. 
Look at those people in blue. That's their thing. Not ours( my bad, yours I guess).
By the way canbabis prohibition puts young black men in to the cycle of prisons more rapidly than most anything else and I fight everyday to change that. So how's my ideology that different, other than some misplaced hate? 

Muhammad Rasheed - It would seem that your bottomline is that if only black people would act right whites would finally accept them and all of these bad times would be behind us. If this were true then we wouldn't even be having this discussion. 

Chris Jones - Wrong assumption again.
I just wanted you to get another perspective I ain't trying to make an enemy ( I have plenty already) just giving you an unbiased opinion. Not need to sweat it, the white politicians and police I talk to about these things seem to get offended also. 

Muhammad Rasheed - EVERYONE'S opinion is biased, Chris. 

Muhammad Rasheed - Chris Jones wrote: "Wrong assumption again."

How was it wrong, and what was the other one that was wrong? 

Muhammad Rasheed - Here's the things you said that actually offended me:

1.) When you suggested that I wanted the people to riot and get beat up by military-police forces.

2.) Your weird and nigh-continuous assumption that I mean EVERY white person and EVERY cop is my enemy. I noticed that you've failed to explain how you've come to this assumption. Are you chalking it up to your lack of a formal education? 

Chris Jones - I love a good debate Mr. Rasheed but I don't think this is going anywhere. I also think I might be the wrong guy to take on this argument in order to make a point. If ok. I'm going to try and have someone else make this point from a different vantage point. I don't think mine holds enough weight unfortunately.
It was a good chat though. You kept me on defense and a good defense is the best offense. 

Muhammad Rasheed - The actual quote is "A good offense is the best defense." It doesn't work the same way when it is flipped backwards, Chris. 

Muhammad Rasheed - Chris Jones wrote: "I love a good debate Mr. Rasheed but I don't think this is going anywhere."

I'll assume you feel that way because you failed to sway me to your side? You're right, your point didn't hold any weight to me, and the less so when you made the claim that your opinion was unbiased.  In fact, you may add that to the list of things you said that offended me.

Chris Jones - You condoned it and as a man. Black or White I think you should have spoke against it. 
You said they as in white folk. And due to the fact I get called a racist for having a differing oponion and because of my skin pigment daily. I took offense and thought I may help since I might represent another demographic that doesn't wish ill will on another man. I just wanted to stress that there are better ways.
Sorry if my assumption offended you and I hope through all my weirdness we've gained more understanding.

Muhammad Rasheed - Chris Jones wrote: "You condoned it and as a man. Black or White I think you should have spoke against it."

I don't believe in speaking against the symptoms of a problem. That would be a complete waste of my time. I believe in addressing the root cause. The symptoms, you will find, will vanish away like magic.

Chris Jones wrote: "You said they as in white folk."

lol I said "they" as in the specific sub-group that believe in the ideology I'm arguing against. Tell me why that means that I'm automatically talking about all white people. I find it odd and suspicious that someone claiming not to be a racist would continuously INSIST that is what I mean. Curious.

Chris Jones wrote: "I just wanted to stress that there are better ways."

Better ways of releasing frustration than rioting? There's always a better way. If you somehow think that these frustrated people will listen to me and stop erupting in violence after dealing with their societal wrongs for so long because M. Rasheed told them to, you are very mistaken.

Chris Jones wrote: "Sorry if my assumption offended you and I hope through all my weirdness we've gained more understanding."

I've gained zero understanding from our dialog. You seemed to make it a point to deliberately avoid all of my questions formulated precisely so that I WOULD gain understanding. How am I to understand you if you don't answer my questions?

Chris Jones - Mr. Rasheed. No disrespect intended. If you could take just a minute to watch this video I just posted it may help clear up what point I couldn't make.

Muhammad Rasheed - I'm at work right now.  What does it say?

Chris Jones - Sorry man. It was just a different perspective of a young man from Baltimore.
Just real talk. Talk is what brings about change.

Muhammad Rasheed - I have a fundamental issue with anyone making the claim that it is the blacks who must do all the changing in order for people to stop oppressing them.  The people who think that are unaware of the history of the two groups in this country.

Again I'm not interested in the opinion that we need to tackle the symptoms of the problem in order for the problem to go away.  That never works for any kind of illness.  Ever.  That certainly includes societal ills.

Sum up the kid's point for me, please.  What is his message?

If his message is "We shouldn't be rioting, y'all.  There has to be a better way." then tell me what that has to do with anything?  How is watching that clip helping me in any possible way?

Chris Jones - Sorry to bother you and I appreciate your taking the time to chat with me.

Monday, April 27, 2015

What Do You Do When Given Your Heart's Desire?

Muhammad Rasheed - Regarding the complaints over the perceived lameness of undercard attached to the super fight on 02 May, it's 100% up to the fighters themselves to make that undercard great based on how they choose to perform. With the whole world watching, if the undercard sucks it will be their fault, not the fault of the promoters who gave them that shot on the world stage.

If YOU were given this opportunity what would YOU do?

See Also:  Super Fight x2: Mayweather versus Pacquiao

Slight Discrepencies in a "Post-Racial" Society

Muhammad Rasheed - [shared link]

 Cop Refuses to Shoot Fellow White Citizen

Dear racists,

Your fake-ass argument is invalid. Fuck you.

Bakkah Rasheed-Shabazz - Was the suspect a white dude? That makes the difference. Where's the reports by the media about the difference in the number of white males shot by police compared to African Americans? The figures are outrageously different but never mentioned. 

Warren Murphy - more whites are shot. 

Walker Jones Tj - More Blacks are killed. 

J Arealia Crear - There's WAAAY more white people (78% of US population vs 13%). White people should get shot "more", but the question isn't about gross numbers, it's about rates (percentages). "The 1,217 deadly police shootings from 2010 to 2012 captured in the federal data show that blacks, age 15 to 19, were killed at a rate of 31.17 per million, while just 1.47 per million white males in that age range died at the hands of police." A rate 30 times higher is significant and merits reporting. Bill O'Reilly, Nick Kristof on race and police killings

Michael Hodges - The thing nobody seems to care about: While what J Arealia Crear posted above is absolutely correct inasmuch as the rates merit investigation (and by God, they certainly do!), people are treating this story as "proof" since the cop refused to shoot the man.

Am I the only one aware that the cop DID HIS JOB, because he's SUPPOSED to try to minimize force regardless of the suspect's/assailant's race?

When a white cop shoots a black man, we damn him for shooting, regardless of the circumstances. Don't read into that: ALL shootings need to be investigated, and anything which suggests something out of whack needs to be investigated further.

But we're damning this guy for NOT shooting. What the hell was he supposed to do, choose to specifically shoot because the perp was white in order to convey some crazy sense of appeasement?!? 

Karla Holland - Any thing that comes out of their mouth is pretty much invalid. 

Clark Willis - J Arealia Crear Yes, there is a 78% to 13% ratio there, but there is a 69% to 28% ration of crimes reported by race. Feel free to spin some racism on that. Keep in mind that "whites" also include hispanics here.

Clark Willis - Personally, in that situation, I would have shot him when he approached, and especially when I was on the ground. 

Karl Dabney - Good point. Not as diplomatic as I would say it, but you are on target. 

J Arealia Crear - "spin some racism on that"? LMAO. *quietly exits conversation* 

Tom Luth - Glad to see there are still some decent cops around. 

Andre Roberts - If he were black he would have been shot in the back, forget charging 

Reg Clinton Brown - This dude is white that's why 

Neil Bagozzi - Who is the literary genius muhammad. 

Chester Moyle - Andre, how would he have got shot in the back when he was charging. U-turn bullets? 

Muhammad Rasheed - In the future, unless you actually believe the following:

1.) blacks should be discriminated against for no other reason than because they are from the black american ethnic group,

2.) whites should be showered with preferential privileges for no other reason than because they are of the euro-ethnic groups,

3.) frequently wish that blacks would just "go back to africa"

4.) think that black people are inherently more savage and less intelligent than other groups

5.) believe white people are the apex of human evolution

6.) somehow believe there is no white-on-white crime with numbers comparable to the black-on-black crime rates,

7.) believe the world were better off if blacks were all killed off, put back in slavery, or controled by the state while everyone else lived freely

8.) racism is a fiction, or at least is no longer present in society

9.) and various combinations of ideologies developed from the above

...then please don't respond to these angry, anti-racism rants of mine while seemingly supporting discriminatory practices, unless you want to out yourself as a racist. FYI. It's fine if all you are doing is playing devil's advocate, but try to let people know that, please. 

Ayub Black Panther - A skin head will kill another shin head if his life is threatened.
Fuck being a cop. The Cop was a scared lil bitch and should quit or be fired. 

Luther Johnson - The officer did his job correctly. A police officer should not fire unless he absolutely has to. I dont think that the argument is: should the officer have shot the suspect....but rather: why are cops so quick to shoot black/brown people and fail to show restraint they show white people. 

Muhammad Rasheed - ^This. 

Muhammad Rasheed - They give white suspects every chance in the universe... that's why this clip is so powerful... no matter how heinous the crime. They could have just shot up an elementary school, but they won't shoot him because he might have a family, or everyone deserves to have their story told, you don't know what this poor mentally ill soul went through to make him take that dark road, what right do I have to take this man's life, we've all been there, it could've been anyone, etc.

But blacks? They will unload the gun into you casually because of what you might have done ("He was like a DEMON!!"), or what you probably did in your past ("Did you see him in that photo holding a gun and money? Disgusting. I wish someone had shot him that day.")

Neil Bagozzi - According you Muhammad every cop in the USA joins the police force to kill black people.

Muhammad Rasheed - lol

Muhammad Rasheed -  According to you, Neil, you read somewhere where I said every single cop in America is a racist. I must've deleted it. 

Muhammad Rasheed - You could've saved the typing time if the best you could do was a shallow strawman. 

Muhammad Rasheed - If you want to bring it then bring it. Throw down your rod. 

Clifton Hatchett - Most cases like this end with a dead body and an acquitted Cop.

Jeremy Travis - When A White Man Tries To Break Into A Car Nothing Happens, But Watch When A Black Man Tries The Same Thing

Muhammad Rasheed - "That poor, poor white man must've accidentally locked his keys in there. He's probably late picking up his kids from day care or something noble like that. CAN'T SOMEONE HELP THAT POOR WHITE MAN????"

Muhammad Rasheed - "Look at that thug getting within 50 feet too close to that parking lot...! SOMEBODY CALL THE POLICE!!!"

The Blatant Sabotage of a Man Trying to Help His People

Muhammad Rasheed - Interesting. And the next year Hollywood treated Harlem Nights like it was the worst movie ever made, and tried to humiliate him for directing and writing his own film that was full of black people.

Muhammad Rasheed - I loved Harlem Nights. I didn't find out the critics said all those things about it until just a few years ago. Gene Siskel said it offended him. How, I wonder? 

Danny Bronson - Awesome movie! 

Raymond Gardner - You're absolutely right -- they couldn't wait to pounce on him for Harlem Nights. It was world class Nigger-breaking and I don't think he ever directed again. But to nearly every black American, Harlem Nights is a classic! 

Ricky Mujica - Harlem Nights was funny! A classic! 

Muhammad Rasheed - I don't think he's ever been as confident as he was in this clip again. He probably seriously started doubting himself after the critics, and his billionaire "friends" that he respected so much, ripped into his so-called "vanity project" film to break him from his ambitions. They didn't want their cash cow going anywhere.

Eric C. Martin - What the hell?... Muhammad, Harlem Knights was sooooooo disappointing. It should've had tons of laughs, instead it was just MEH. I was so upset. I loved Foxx, Pryor, and Murphy and I barely chuckled at it.

What does being "full of black people" have to do with anything?

Muhammad Rasheed - I thought it was awesome, and as the other thread posters before you mentioned, they also thought it was awesome. It WAS full of tons of laughs and was chock-full-of-quotable moments, and everyone I knew from my neighborhood in Detroit loved it, too.

Being "full of black people" is important in an industry that traditionally underserves the black community. Usually, more often than not, "black roles" are stereotypical roles created by white writers, where they treat being a black American as a stock character, like "the gangster," or "the bank teller," so the black character is always the same 3-4 archetypes from the stereotype playbook. Consequently, actors who don't fit easily into what white casting directors think is "really black" often find themselves rarely acting. The solution is for blacks to be in positions of power so we can make our own platforms. Eddie tried to do that for his people when he found himself in the role as "biggest box office draw," and the people closest to him in that world --who either didn't get it, like you seem not to, or wanted to discourage the competition -- burned him for it.

Muhammad Rasheed
- Eric provide some insight into why you think Gene Siskel was offended by it, please.

Tracy A. Harris - Muhammad Rasheed...while I respect Murphy's adventurous endeavor, and appreciated that he gave roles to many African Americans but overall, it wasn't all that great. Perhaps had he tried directing again, he may have gotten better. Harlem Nights suffered from many insular moments of comedy rather than being consistently funny throughout. The "Take yo big ass home and brush yo one tooth" or "Ahh so yo wanna hit people with garbage cans" were funny scenes, don't get me wrong, but I think it just wasnt that funny or good overall. My two favorite EM movies are Boomerang and A Vampire in Brooklyn. In both, while Murphy is not the director, the stories flesh out a bit more and give his character a chance to breathe. In HN, while wearing so many "hats", what may have seemed funny to him, just didn't translate on screen as well. He's an artistic guy who shines in the roles he's given, b/c he focuses all his energy on doing what he does best, it just seemed based on that one movie that he directed, that wasn't his forte'.

Muhammad Rasheed - Hi, Tracy. I think your post helps illustrate the subjective nature of art in my responses to Eric in that post, as I have the opposite opinion to the majority of your points here. An individual's opinion regarding was is great, good, or bad in an art form is never a definitive or universal truth; I loved Harlem Nights and hated A Vampire in Brooklyn for example. And from where I'm from, I certainly knew more people who enjoyed the film more than disliked it, for a variety of personally subjective reasons as is normal.

Aside from it's merits as art to be enjoyed, I feel it absolutely was great as a business move, and was deliberately slapped down to prevent the superstar number one box office draw from creating a power move to challenge Hollywood's greedy six-studio cartel. I wish he wouldn't have listened to those people and stuck to his guns with what he knew was right, as reflected in his speech here.

JS Butler - But, what then do you attribute to Tyler Perry's success?

Muhammad Rasheed - What do you mean? Tyler followed the tried & true classic business formula.

JS Butler - That meaning, what exactly? What did he do that Murphy did not?

Muhammad Rasheed - He followed that formula through to its fruition. Eddie allowed the naysayers to clip his dream before it peaked.

JS Butler - Based on Harlem Nights, it did not look promising.

Muhammad Rasheed
- Why do you say that?

JS Butler - I saw he also attempted to translate his ability to morph in several characters as he had done with the Nutty Professor movies twice into a similar format for Norbit which banked south quickly, b/c he removed the essential element of humanity from the central character.

Muhammad Rasheed - On a budget of $30 million, Harlem Nights made $90 million+. It was certainly a business success. He could've used that to springboard himself into at LEAST where Tyler is now.

JS Butler - But how much of that was accessible to him in the aftermath of such a comedic atrocity/calamity? Tripling your money on a venture would lead to success for anyone else, but in Murphy's case?

Muhammad Rasheed - JS, that doesn't make any sense to me.

Muhammad Rasheed - Vampire in Brooklyn barely made back it's budget, and I don't know many people that liked it.

JS Butler - Tripling YOUR financial investment is one thing but tripling MY investment is something wholly different. If he tripled the money of others and was STILL denied the opportunity to do movies his way, something is wrong.

JS Butler - I loved Boomerang. It was consistently funny throughout.

Muhammad Rasheed
- Sabotage was wrong. The critics in the establishment attacked it, no different than they did Will's After Earth project (before it was even released).

JS Butler - Why wouldn't he RE-INVEST in himself though?

Muhammad Rasheed - I loved Boomerang, too.

Muhammad Rasheed
- Because he listened to the naysayers instead of himself.

JS Butler - I didn't see After Earth, it didn't look promising. JMO

Muhammad Rasheed - It's all just our opinions, JS.

JS Butler - I can't believe he put that much stock in the word of others if it made him money.

Muhammad Rasheed - He can get crippled by doubts just like many of us.

JS Butler - Perry believed in himself when he had nothing AND when he had built something.

Muhammad Rasheed - He sure did.

Muhammad Rasheed
- And he never reached the superstar status that Eddie did either.

Muhammad Rasheed - People are different.

JS Butler - Doesn't really need to. He's reached BILLIONAIRE status. Which in the grand scheme of things is MORE relevant?

Muhammad Rasheed - He wouldn't have reached that status if he didn't believe in himself.

JS Butler - Which?

Muhammad Rasheed - Tyler.

JS Butler
- Yes. But he is limiting himself by the types of movies he makes in his studios.

Muhammad Rasheed - lol He made his success based on those "limits." A level of success reached by no other black businessperson in that industry.

JS Butler - Not everyone is religious. His ham-fisted methodology can be a bit overbearing. If he's really aiming to become a player, he needs to broaden his movies.

JS Butler
- He could own Lionsgate at this point.

JS Butler - Just curious, what was your take on Django?

Muhammad Rasheed
- Tyler worked the tried & true business formula of catering to the people who bought into his vision and shared his worldview. Outsider opinions absolutely do not matter. He's CLEARLY a "player" now.

Muhammad Rasheed - RE: Django Unchained, I thought it was okay. Gave it a 'B.'

JS Butler
-My grandfather loved "Westerns". As a child, I was always watching Wagon Train, GunSmoke, Big Valley, The Rifleman, etc growing up. I always wondered the same question: Where were WE while all of this was going on? I occasionally saw Black comedy actors providing white comic relief and Black coonery, but that did not do a sufficient job of telling our story. I saw many public African Americans stating their disdain for the movie even before it debuted, but my thing was why not pool resources and tell our story the way you want to if Tarantino bothered them that much? When Spike Lee ran over budget for Malcolm X, he went to Oprah, Bill Cosby, Janet Jackson, Michael Jackson and others to secure additional funding, yet this was a great western that could easily have been told by us, yet wasn't and none of them thought to ban together to get a similar project going. There is a wealth of resources in the artistic Black community, from writers, to directors, to art designers, to actors...yet there is a dearth of singular sourcing when it comes to joining together to help one another. Odd.

Muhammad Rasheed
- ^The message within this post right here is why I get irritated at the very vocal and unfair black community attacks on Tyler Perry. The phenomenal lack of insight from my people on that item tends to make me go into a light depression. It doesn't MATTER if his content appeals to you or not. It's BIGGER than that. Would it have mattered if whether any of Spike's black star investors personally believed in Malcolm X's ideology or not?

People need to wake the hell up for real... >:(

Scott Tucker - I hated Moonstruck. I couldn't even sit all the way though it. Cher and Nick Cage are 2 of the worst actors in history. Harlem Nights was a classic.

Karla Holland - One of my favorite movies. Whenever I hear someone say they hate that movie, I know they are just following reviews they read online. I can't take them seriously with films after that.

Muhammad Rasheed - That's how I feel when the anti-After Earth folk parrot that nepotism drivel.

Kamau Mkafele Mshale - I didn't find out the critics said those things till just now

Brian McGee
- Harlem Nights is a classic!

Todd Holland - Damn...I'd never seen this...I don't watch the Oscars ...Eddie hit that ass with a lot of truth....Also,Harlem Nights is a classic!!!

See Also:

What's a "Vanity Project?"

No Room for You at the Top

The Subjectivity of Art

Martin's Real Message

Kimberly Moseberry - [posted image] I did this message on how I felt about MLK. In the media they always portray him as a old man almost. But He was young when he died. The never talked about this... speech he did. On how blacks needed to own their own businesses and build their own economy. 

By the time he did say wake up and began speaking on it. He was murdered.

I call this piece waking up from the dream into broken promises.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kimberly Moseberry wrote: “[They] never talked about this speech he did. On how blacks needed to own their own businesses and build their own economy.”

This was around the time period when the focus of the civil rights movement mysteriously shifted from the pursuit of “de-segregation” (which came with a list of objectives that needed to be conquered in order for the Black American community to get up to speed with joining the mainstream society without being held back by discriminatory laws), to a destructive “integration” goal, which came with a list of nothing that would strengthen the community, and in fact resulted in the middle class abandoning the black communities, plunging them into heartbreaking blight and desolation. This served only to widen the gap between the Black middle class and the lower classes, leaving the poor easy prey for other groups to take advantage of. Now they feel more helpless than they did during the height of jim crow, when at least all the socio-economic classes had little choice but to uplift each other in the face of a far more blunt demonstration of racism; an uplifting that mimicked the struggles of every other people who grew from poor struggling immigrant to successful ethnic group. This odd “integration” has functioned like a curse on the Black American, and it is impossible for me to believe it wasn't a calculated tactic slipped in from a greedy and predatory outsider, pretending to be a friend who had our best interests at heart.

I think in order for us to finally win free of our historical struggles in this country, we need to track down the source of this “integration” curse, call it out for what it is, and get back on the “de-segregation” train to continue on to our correct stopping point. We have to, because without our own power bloc composed of our own independent businesses and a control over our own sub-economy that contributes to the whole, any progress we've made in the last 50 years since integration will really be only shallow and illusory.

Did the American Founding Fathers Believe in God?

Shane Gallup – [Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X] were both vehicles of change! American as a nation could truly be and I still pray will be "one nation under God"

Kimberly Moseberry - @Shane Gallup... the founding fathers didn't believe in god.

Shane Gallup - True... In this case my views and hopes.

Muhammad Rasheed - Kimberly Moseberry wrote: "the founding fathers didn't believe in god."

They did (except possibly for Washington), they just didn't adhere to a strict acceptance of the Christian "Apostle's Creed." Many strict Christians opted to toss them in the atheist group for not believing in the Judeo-Christian doctrine the specific way they wanted them to, but they certainly believed in God.

Kimberly Moseberry - George Washington nor did the few others. Don't believe me. Look it up.

Muhammad Rasheed -  I did look it up, Kimberly.  That’s why I know.


James Watkins[True or False: The Founding Fathers of The United States were Christians who formed a government based on godly principles.]  That’s a more complex answer. The “revisionist left” would like to make them secular and the “religious right” would like to make them saintly. Let’s take a look at some of the more prominent Founding Father’s beliefs . . . in their own words.

John Adams

The second President (or tenth if you consider John Hanson the first) wrote to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813:

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were. . . . the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature.

However, Adams is often quoted as saying, “This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!” However, here’s the complete quotation in an April 19, 1817, letter to Thomas Jefferson:

Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, “This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion at all!!!” But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.

As a Unitarian, Adams flatly denied the doctrine of eternal punishment, believing all would eventually enter heaven. (Many Unitarians reject the Trinity and most accept all religions as valid expressions of faith.) But being a good Unitarian, he was certainly open to the teachings of Christ.
Jesus is benevolence personified, an example for all men. . . . The Christian religion, in its primitive purity and simplicity, I have entertained for more than sixty years. It is the religion of reason, equity, and love; it is the religion of the head and the heart (Letter to F.A. Van Der Kemp, December 27, 1816).

During Adam’s administration the Senate ratified the 1797 Treaty of Peace and Friendship with Tripoli, which states in Article XI that “the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.” Some view this as “a smoking gun” that America was not founded as a Christian nation, while others argue that it was simply a concession to the Muslim nation (when the treaty was renegotiated eight years later, Article XI was dropped).

Samuel Adams

Samuel Adams organized the Boston Tea Party, and served as Governor of Massachusetts, a delegate to the Continental congress, and a signer of the Declaration of Independence.

In his 1772 work, The Rights of the Colonists, Adams wrote:

II. The Rights of the Colonists as Christians.
The right to freedom being the gift of the Almighty…The rights of the colonists as Christians…may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutions of The Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament.

In his Last Will and Testament he wrote:

Principally, and first of all, I resign my soul to the Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying on the merits of Jesus Christ for the pardon of my sins.

Benjamin Franklin

In his autobiography, Franklin describes himself as “a thorough Deist.” “I began to be regarded, by pious souls, with horror, either as an apostate or an Atheist.”

According to a Deist publication, a Deist is “One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason.” Deists reject the Judeo-Christian accounts of God as well as the Bible. They do believe that God is eternal and good, but flatly reject having a relationship with Him through Christ.

Franklin certainly believed in the providence of God. In his famous speech to the Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia on June 28, 1787:

I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth•that God governs in the affairs of men… If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground unseen by him, is it probable an empire could arise without his aid? I firmly believe this, and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building not better than the builders of Babel.

Just five months before his death, he wrote to Dr. Stiles, the President of Yale, who had questioned Franklin about his faith:

I believe in one God, the Creator of the universe; that he governs it by his Providence; that be ought to be worshiped; that the. most acceptable service we can render to him is doing good to his other children; that the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points of all sound religion, and I regard them as you do, in whatever sect I meet with them. As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think his system of morals and his religion, as be left them to us, the best the world ever saw, or is like to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it.

Alexander Hamilton

The Episcopalian authored many of the Federalist Papers, signed the Constitution, and became the first Secretary of the Treasury. In an April 1802 letter to James A. Bayard, Hamilton proposed The Christian Constitutional Society:

In my opinion, the present constitution is the standard to which we are to cling. Under its banner bona fide must we combat our political foes, rejecting all changes but through the channel itself provided for amendments. By these general views of the subject have my reflections been guided. I now offer you the outline of the plan they have suggested. Let an association be formed to be denominated “The Christian Constitutional Society,” its object to be first: The support of the Christian religion. second: The support of the United States.

Hamilton was shot and killed by Aaron Burr in a duel on July 12, 1804. His last dying words reportedly were:

I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.

Patrick Henry

Best known for his “give me liberty or give me death” speech on March 23, 1775, he became the first governor of Virginia.

One of his most famous quotations, cannot be verified, although it’s used by many Christian ministers: “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!” It’s not found anywhere in his recorded writings or speeches.

However, here’s a verified quotation from a letter to his daughter dated August 20, 1796:

Amongst other strange things said of me, I hear it is said by the deists that I am one of the number; and indeed, that some good people think I am no Christian. This thought gives me much more pain than the appellation of Tory; because I think religion of infinitely higher importance than politics; and I find much cause to reproach myself that I have lived so long, and have given no decided and public proofs of my being a Christian. But, indeed, my dear child, this is a character which I prize far above all this world has, or can boast.

And in his will:

This is all the inheritance I give to my dear family. The religion of Christ will give them one which will make them rich indeed.

John Jay

One of the authors of the Federalist Papers and first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, Jay wrote to Rev. Uzal Ogden, on February 14, 1796:

I have long been of opinion that the evidence of the truth of Christianity requires only to be carefully examined to produce conviction in candid minds. . . .

And in an April 23, 1811, letter to John Bristed, April 23, 1811, he wrote:

While in France . . . I do not recollect to have had more than two conversations with atheists about their tenents. The first was this: I was at a large party, of which were several of that description. They spoke freely and contemptuously of religion. I took no part in the conversation. In the course of it, one of them asked me if I believed in Christ? I answered that I did, and that I thanked God that I did.

Thomas Jefferson

The writer of the Declaration of Independence and the third President of the United States wrote to Charles Thomson in 1816:

I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.

Jefferson was a Deist who respected Christ’s teachings, but rejected His divinity, His miracles, and His resurrection. In a letter to William Short dated April 13, 1820, he wrote:

I am a Materialist.

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to [Jesus] by His biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same Being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore to Him the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, and roguery of others of His disciples. Of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great . . . corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus.

In separating Jesus divine and human natures, Jefferson wrote to John Adams, January 24, 1814 that the divine aspects of Christ were “the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.”

And so he compiled The Jefferson Bible: The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth Extracted Textually from the Gospels. Jefferson simply cut out anything of a supernatural or miraculous nature and so his Bible ends:

Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen cloths with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. There laid they Jesus, And rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

George Washington

The first President’s faith is a bit harder to pin down.

Many Christian writers and commentators point to Washington’s twenty-four page manuscript book, titled, Daily Sacrifice. It was found in April 1891 among a collection of Washington’s papers in his confirmed handwriting when he was about the age of twenty. In it he prays:

Bless my family, kindred, friends and country, be our God & guide this day and for ever for his sake, who lay down in the Grave and arose again for us, Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.

. . . in and for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ offered upon the cross for me; for his sake, ease me of the burden of my sins, and give me grace that by the call of the Gospel I may rise from the slumber of sin into the newness of life.

Let me live according to those holy rules which thou hast this day prescribed in thy holy word; make me to know what is acceptable in thy holy word; make me to know what is acceptable in thy sight, and therein to delight, open the eyes of my understanding, and help me thoroughly to examine myself concerning my knowledge, faith and repentance, increase my faith, and direct me to the true object Jesus Christ the way, the truth and the life, bless O Lord, all the people of this land, from the highest to the lowest, particularly those whom thou has appointed to rule over us in church & state. continue thy goodness to me this night. These weak petitions I humbly implore thee to hear accept and ans. for the sake of thy Dear Son Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.

In his Speech to Delaware Indian Chiefs on May 12, 1779, Washington said:

You do well to wish to learn our arts and our ways of life and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do everything they can to assist you in this wise intention.

However, during his presidency (1789-1797) and in his later life, Washington is not recorded referring to Jesus Christ and rarely to God. He preferred titles such as “the Divine Author of our blessed Religion,” “Almighty Being,” “Providence” and “Grand Designer” (all terms from Deist beliefs).

Washington also used the title “Supreme Architect” (a Freemasonary term of which he became a devout member, served as the head of the original Alexandria Lodge No. 22, and presided over the laying of the U.S. Capitol in a Mason apron).

According to Bishop White, Washington’s pastor for nearly 25 years at the Protestant Episcopal Church of America, as well as Washington’s adopted daughter Nelly Custis-Lewis, the President would leave the service before communion was served. (The Eucharist or Holy Communion is considered an essential part of salvation for Catholics and for many members of liturgical churches.)
Lewis however defended her step-father’s faith in a letter:

I never witnessed his private devotions. I never inquired about them. I should have thought it the greatest heresy to doubt his firm belief in Christianity. His life, his writings, prove that he was a Christian. He was not one of those who act or pray, “that they may be seen of men” [Matthew 6:5]. He communed with his God in secret [Matthew 6:6].

Thomas Jefferson was less charitable:

"[Washington] had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly, except that, which he passed over without notice” (Jefferson’s Works, Vol. iv., p. 572).

James Watkins – So, were the Founding Fathers Christians?

They were certainly godly men who believed in a supreme being, but not everyone would subscribe to the Apostles’ Creed [of Christianity].  Both revisionists and the religious right have tried to make the Founding Fathers fit their ideology. It gives neither side of the debate any credibility when quotations are found to be fictitious or grossly out of context.

For instance, I’ve seen articles proclaiming that Jefferson claimed to be “a real Christian” while conveniently avoiding his opinion that belief in Christ’s divinity was “dung” (see contexts above).
I am a subscriber to the Apostles’ Creed (I’ve had a “subscription” since second grade). I would love to document that the most prominent Founding Fathers were orthodox Christians.

However, I’m also a journalist who is committed to being an OAF (Objective, Accurate, and Fair), so I have only included quotations where I could find at least two collaborating, reliable sources.
So this essay continues to be a work in progress. If you have a relevant quotation from one of the Founding Fathers regarding his faith or find an error, please email me with at least two reliable sources. Thanks!