Alan Brodie - NOTICE!
Q. What kind of people patronize the tavern?
A. People who want quiet and a chance to rest. Occasionally a traveler from inside the Pale or an explorer.
Q. I've heard that some of your clientele is pretty rough. In fact - not to mince matters - it's the general belief that Smade's Tavern is frequented by the most notorious pirates and freebooters of the Beyond.
A. I suppose they occasionally need rest too.
Q. Don't you have difficulty with these people? Maintaining order, so to speak?
A.No. They know my rules. I say, "Gentlemen, please desist. Your differences are your own; they are fugitive. The harmonious atmosphere of the tavern is mine and I intend it to be permanent."
Q. So then they desist?
Q. And if not?
A. I pitch them into the sea.
Geoff Freeman - Wouldn't you love to have a drink there and observe the clientele?
Muhammad Rasheed - I'm more concerned as to whether Rhoads can tread water. O_O
Muhammad Rasheed - what if a demon prince decides to impromptu recruit you for some suicide mission?
Geoff Freeman - I'd find it hard to refuse, I suppose. I could always flash my IPCC badge...
Muhammad Rasheed - I think that would probably be the single WORST thing you could do. lol
Rob Wilkinson - I set this group up for people to share their love of Jack Vance and his writing. It is not a political messageboard. It is not a place for people to antagonise or display their ability to best others with dazzling debate that ultimately fills the page with irrelevant invective. There is no place for any vitriol. There are millions of websites/groups for just such a hobby. My co admin Alan Brodie is more forgiving than I on this matter. You will be demoted to under Worminger. And if it is an intention of any member to continue with posts not true to the spirit of the group, I will have to remove you. This is not specific to any one individual. It applies to all the community. Sorry to have to make a post such as this. Rob.
Paul Rhoads - Another space rendered useless by punctillious, nuncupatory sissys. l'd like to learn more about this neo-Fanchrade but only in an intelligent public area.
Muhammad Rasheed - Hush, before you drown!
Paul Rhoads - clean and nice. "bravo". And here l had gone to all that trouble to tame the savage beast and draw him toward vancian terrain.
l suppose you concider yourself worthy of Vance, and to be upholding ... something or other. Enjoy!
Rob Wilkinson - I just like reading. And I have always considered fans of Vance, all of you, to be people I would like to know. My opinion on this matter has not changed. I am off to read 'Showboat World'. :-)
Muhammad Rasheed - One of my VERY favorites. Enjoy!
Paul Rhoads - There is vocabulary for this:
As for 'The Showboats of the Lower Vissle River, Lune XXlll, Big Planet' (know your Vance titles, at least!) >:-( ...here again is a story rife with rough and tumble and serious issues with which, one gets the impression, certain people could not even begin to cope with in real life, given that in virtual life they insist on bland tranqillity - though low-level snarks alway seem to pas muster.
Richy Clarke - Vissle?
Paul Rhoads - To wow a dainty Spelling bee
l thought to blow a silver wistle
No sooner did l toot a "C",
Then Richy Clarke disgurgled "vissle".
Cugel Phandaal Law - Give em some blue concemtrate
Chris Koop - Aillas couldn't have said it better.
Jose Brutinel Sampol - Amen.
Deuce Richardson - Right on.
Hal Jordan - Full support. One of my favorite FB group ever
David Hurst - Thank you!
Emphyrio Glawen Clattuc - Spiced sausage, ramp and beer for everyone!
Muhammad Rasheed - beef sausage...?
Emphyrio Glawen Clattuc - All kinds of sausage for all tastes...now with steamed leeks :)
William M Ramsell III - Quite right too.
Bodwyn Wook - I concur, Mr Wilkinson. I should only add that in aid of fostering a certain minimum sort of serenity in these pp, a very good point will be for us all to refrain from imbibing any more of the phenolic 'Bold Lion Reserve'; as we have now seen, alas, it IS a vile decoction & it indeed does clabber the bile!
Stephen Rawlins - I love this group. Yes, please moderate it to keep it clean and true to the spirit of all things Vancian.
Muhammad Rasheed - Hahaha You all seem to have walked away from Jack's works with an interesting interpretation of their 'spirit.' I'm pretty sure none of them are sterile, PC, and without conflict to keep the reader "safe" from opposing ideas that might frighten their over-sensitive gizzards. :P lol
Muhammad Rasheed - "The Augmented Agent" tale in particular bravely explored some racial-political concepts that made me really proud of him, and sealed his spot as my favorite writer... remarkable for a person his age, and from his particular ethnic demographic considering. It goes far towards explaining why you lot seem to only notice his thesaurus, and shy away from deep discussions of his social-political commentaries, as my archnemesis Rhoads pointed out above. The Spirit of Jack Vance was far more potent than even his fans could grasp. May God have mercy upon his soul.
Rob Wilkinson - I received over forty messages of complaint over the last few threads. The first time in ten years. I fully appreciate the subtle and brilliant mirror shone on myriad human conditions by Vances work. I am not sterile. Or particularly PC..as I fancy that almost all of the Dying Earth would offend me at this point. Please try and understand that being an admin on a group and overseeing it requires thinking of the general membership. For the first time since its inception, I have seriously considered deleting the group.
Alan Brodie - @Muhammad Rasheed... Further to what Rob said above:
Vance's treatment of sociopolitical themes are certainly a large part of his appeal. I for one have no interest in his "thesaurus", as you put it, because I had read widely enough in my early years on this planet that very few of his words ever struck me as new or unusual. (This is different from discussion of his prose *style*, which for me is his primary appeal. In fact, I consider him the finest English prose stylist of the 20th century, but certainly not because he used "odd" words.)
Anyway, you're missing the point. No one is being moderated for discussing Vance's political or religious themes. That is completely legitimate and fine. But the moment the argument ceases to be about Vance's work and degenerates into disputatious back-and-forth with no prospect of mutual enlightenment and no value for anyone besides the participants, that's when it ceases to be appropriate matter for this forum. In my view, the group was becoming clogged with pretentious grandstanding, of ZERO RELEVANCE TO AN APPRECIATION OF JACK VANCE'S WORK, shedding no light but generating a fair amount of heat. At which point, I discussed the matter (calmly and rationally) with Rob, and we decided to act.
I have never done this before, and I hope never to have to do it again.
Muhammad Rasheed - Rob Wilkinson wrote: “I received over forty messages of complaint over the last few threads. The first time in ten years.”
Which makes sense considering different viewpoints were being shared that were often new to them, and tended to shake the comfort of their world views. People complain for less. Doesn’t mean anything was actually wrong, folk just like to complain. You would be better served discerning the ability to know when you should take it seriously and when you shouldn’t. This was definitely a “shouldn’t” scenario.
Rob Wilkinson wrote: “I fully appreciate the subtle and brilliant mirror shone on myriad human conditions by Vances work.”
Good! And well you should.
Rob Wilkinson wrote: “I am not sterile. Or particularly PC..as I fancy that almost all of the Dying Earth would offend me at this point.”
I was directing that towards all of the “Here, here! Hang the nave from the gibbet, I say! Hoist ‘em HIGH!!” type comments that followed in the wake of your status. They were quite annoying. Note how instead of whining to you about it I merely flexed the power of the proverbial pen? Nuff said.
Rob Wilkinson wrote: “Please try and understand that being an admin on a group and overseeing it requires thinking of the general membership. For the first time since its inception, I have seriously considered deleting the group.”
I DO understand, and the last thing I wanted to do was make any innocent folk feel bad just from my giving push back in a thread that I felt was unnecessarily insulting, in which a couple of the members doubled-down on the insults when I patiently took the time to try and counter their prejudices & biases with a class on the actual beliefs, as opposed to the propaganda they had allowed themselves to be downloaded with. I certainly didn’t want them banned however, I merely wanted the chance to defend myself. I will never consider that wrong, Rob. That seems quite reasonable to me.
Muhammad Rasheed - Alan Brodie wrote: “(This is different from discussion of his prose *style*, which for me is his primary appeal. In fact, I consider him the finest English prose stylist of the 20th century, but certainly not because he used ‘odd’ words.)
I agree 100% with you. And not just because I don’t want my clothes to get wet.
Alan Brodie wrote: “Anyway, you're missing the point. No one is being moderated for discussing Vance's political or religious themes. That is completely legitimate and fine.”
Great good news! I now take back at least half of what I said with enthusiasm!
Alan Brodie wrote: “But the moment the argument ceases to be about Vance's work and degenerates into disputatious back-and-forth with no prospect of mutual enlightenment…”
Wait, I was enlightened. I discovered that my opponents were numbskulls. That was worth at least a partial college credit…
Alan Brodie wrote: “…and no value for anyone besides the participants…”
Bah! That was only because we were distracting them from the latest episode of Survivor or Honey Boo-Boo with our epic battle. You should thank us for livening up the culture for even if but a day or two (before you destroy me, please note that I am only kidding here. Allow your color to return to normal, if you will, and remove your finger from the ‘eject button’).
Alan Brodie wrote: “…that's when it ceases to be appropriate matter for this forum. In my view, the group was becoming clogged with pretentious grandstanding…”
It was FUNNY! Come on!
Alan Brodie wrote: “…of ZERO RELEVANCE TO AN APPRECIATION OF JACK VANCE'S WORK…”
I disagree. The mimicry of his celebrated characters’ tone provided a working demonstration of the master’s canvas in live action… hearty instruction to all lurkers who longed to get a deeper glimpse into Vance’s worlds! Who are you or I do deny them this treat? It will take centuries before his best stories ever grace the silver screen after-all. :(
Alan Brodie wrote: “…shedding no light but generating a fair amount of heat.”
Trust me; there was plenty of light shed. The ear covering, head shaking, and feverish denials from the audience notwithstanding.
Alan Brodie wrote: “At which point, I discussed the matter (calmly and rationally) with Rob …”
YouTube clip or it didn’t happen.
Alan Brodie wrote: “…and we decided to act. I have never done this before, and I hope never to have to do it again.”
Okay, CALM DOWN! You can’t just go around drowning everyone you don’t agree with. Who does that?! Are you campaigning for one of the five empty Demon Prince slots? Sheesh…
I promise I’ll behave. Plus my archnemesis is gone now, so what choice have I? lol
Lisa Y. Henderson - What an ass.
John Justin Green - If so Alan you all could have left the very fine analysis of the original posts of Rhoads and deleted the comments you did not want! That pisses me off!
John Justin Green - Good ideas do not always come back to mind.
John Justin Green - Even this post is political. You can not avoid it.
William Michael Mott - This group isn't slipping into PC dhimmitude, is it? Vance would be aghast at that.
William Michael Mott - Sorry I missed it.
Muhammad Rasheed - The threads still exist. Just not in this group.
John Justin Green - really where? And I want to advertise the brave free men who also appreciate Jack Vance - A group I just made so we can fight in peace! haha
William Michael Mott - Well, good thing I wasn't here for it. I would most certainly have weighed in with observations about Brave Free Men who are not slaves to any belief system or a self-appointed wise man who victimized others with brutality. Just as Vance would have done.
Muhammad Rasheed - John Justin Green wrote: "A group I just made so we can fight in peace!"
So you lot can lynch me??? Was I born yesterday that I would deliberately walk into your lair???
Muhammad Rasheed - (link, please)
William Michael Mott - LOL
John Justin Green - I wish I had your skills with this stuff
Muhammad Rasheed - I know. It's a gift. The mods are hatin' on me. smh
John Justin Green - DO you have the other two from Paul? it was just the ideas in the post he did when the fire took him which were remarkable. We could just put them into the other group. I shared it at the top of this group
William Michael Mott - Dude, why are you spamming the page with pro-Muslim propaganda? Just because you "drew it" doesn't make it true or accurate. You need to take that elsewhere.
Muhammad Rasheed - Yes, they're linked at the bottom of the Churchill one.
William Michael Mott - Oh, I see what you did there. Good to know the mentality.
John Justin Green - Great! I love it! You mirrored the whole thing
John Justin Green - PLease. You are going to ruin my effort. Wait til we are set into the new group
Muhammad Rasheed - @William... I'm not spamming anything. John asked for the link, and I happen to BE Muslim.
Alan Brodie - Rest assured, everybody, that I will do my best to persuade my great friend Rob to return. However, if he doesn't want to, that's his decision. Meanwhile, welcome to Steven Reid Harbin, whom I am privileged to have as co-admin here. Now let's have a little bit of calm around here, please. Maybe we should all go and watch some funny YouTube clips, or better still step away from the Internet for a while and read a book or find congenial company and sit among coloured lights and taste good wines and talk of our adventures in far places. For myself, I am off to spend a few of these midsummer nights sleeping under canvas and spend the days climbing mountains. I hope to see you all here again soon.
Be kind to each other.
Muhammad Rasheed - D'oh!!!
Muhammad Rasheed - I mean: Welcome, Steven!!! *waves*
Deuce Richardson - Thank you for telling us what Vance was all about. This, from a person who could not distinguish a quote (Churchill) from an actual expression of opinion posted by a member of this group. How are you able to see these nuances from Vance when you cannot decipher a simple post quoting Churchill? And why do you feel the need to defend a religion in a group that has existed without such debates for a decade? You have no more privelege (IMO) than any Hindu or Christian who went nuts over basically nothing. Thanks for the toxicity, Muhammad Rasheed!
Muhammad Rasheed - At this point, after all that has been said since I wrote this, I will consider your post a trap in an attempt to deliberately press my buttons, hoping to get me to fly off the handle so I will get pitched into the sea. In other words, you're hoping to trick me into getting myself banned.
It won't work.
Muhammad Rasheed - Calm down, please.
Deuce Richardson - You already "flew off the handle". I was never "not calm" (unlike you). This was a great group before you showed up with an axe to grind.
Muhammad Rasheed - You're clearly not calm considering you're rapidly approaching the limits of your daily exclamation mark allotment, not to mention the fact that you didn't even participate in the arguments in question.
Please calm yourself as your remarks are over-the-top, and embarrass us all. The conflict is over. We both are aware of the true reasons behind your rage fit and it does you little credit. Great progress will be made in our society once your folk finally learn to own up to your mess. Based on your appalling behaviors whenever that packet of topics come up, I have zero hope this will ever be achieved.
Deuce Richardson - My "exclamation point" (not "mark") was singular (and sarcastic). Have you posted how many such points are allowed? I was right there when you went full retard over a Churchill quote and I requested that you might consider calming down. Perhaps you forgot? Your grasp of both nuance and the English language appears to be less than optimal. Thank you for apprising me of my many transgressions. My association with this particular brotherhood of Vancean admirers appears less worthwhile with every moment. I'm not sure all of this is worth the candle.
Muhammad Rasheed - lol You're the one resurrecting a now dead conflict. Here:
Muhammad Rasheed - This is the sum total of your contribution to the thread in question. Note that of the 4 posts, two consist of points directed towards John, one was the helpful correction of my mistake, and the other was directed towards Michael.
You were not part of the argument proper as I said, therefore your rage fit remains over-the-top. Calling me a "retard" because my opinion differs from yours as to whether a racist symbol of colonialist exploitation was great or not, is unnecessarily offensive.
Please calm down.
Deuce Richardson - ...and you're the one who started a conflict that didn't exist heretofore. What if I posted quotes that weren't entirely complimentary to Judaism or Buddhism? Would you attack them as well? As much as I've enjoyed this group, I find my enthusiasm waning.
Muhammad Rasheed – Deuce Richardson wrote: “...and you're the one who started a conflict that didn't exist heretofore.”
The conflict was started when my sacred belief system was molested within a group that is just as much a sanctuary to me as to you all. Odd how to you all, the conflict started at the RESPONSE to the actual wrong.
Deuce Richardson wrote: “What if I posted quotes that weren't entirely complimentary to Judaism or Buddhism? Would you attack them as well?”
It depends on what you said about Judaism. As a fellow People of the Book, slandering the message or their God would be a slight against me as well. Against Buddhism probably not; they would have to defend their own.
Alan Brodie - @Deuce… I understand your frustration, but I will ask you not to poke the embers in case you inadvertently reignite the fire. @Muhammad… thanks for not rising to the challenge, although an even better idea would be not replying at all, since hackles have been raised, tempers are running high, and it only takes an ill-judged word or phrase to raise the temperature to unacceptable levels. Finally, and to be clear, Jack Vance did not set up this group. Nor is he, or his spirit, the arbiter of what is allowed to be said or done here. Just as well, because I suspect we would encounter widely divergent notions regarding what constitutes the Vancian spirit anyway. Thanks, gentlemen. Let's move on, shall we?
Muhammad Rasheed - I agree, Alan. Thank you for a second level head.
Deuce Richardson - I'm pretty sure I'm out of here. Free thought and simple understanding of the English language seems to have given place to post-modernist victimology. I don't pretend to plumb the inner depths of Jack's soul (unlike Rasheed). For all the other members with a tolerant spirit and a command of the English language, I thank you for the years of enjoyment. I don't have time for authoritarianism, bigotry and hyperbolic victimhood.
Alan Brodie - Sigh. I see that since I began writing my post, the argument has continued. I am going to delete this thread because it consists of personal argy-bargy. I don't like deleting posts but maybe I ought to start doing it more often.