Tuesday, September 18, 2018
Creating the Goddess
Umesh Suri - Why are there only male prophets/founders of main religions?
Muhammad Rasheed - The world religions we know of today happened to emerge during eras of dominant patriarchy cultures. Humanity is old, and there have been many civilizations that have emerged and fallen over the ages than what we know of. I'm confident that during past civilizations, under flourishing matriarchal cultures, there very well may have been women holy prophet founders of main religions that were as dominant as the Abrahamic faiths of today. The remnants of old "supreme goddess" pagan faiths were no doubt developed from people who had originally followed a female prophet[s] of the One God, corrupted her message over generations, and then started worshiping her instead of their Guardian Lord.
Tica Mcgarity - this one I like! Some Christians make this mistake as well.
Muhammad Rasheed - "Some...?"
Tica Mcgarity - Jesus is our first teacher. We read the bible for guidance. While there are some christian teachers who teach with enthusiasm ... Saint Paul has ordered us to only believe and follow what Jesus teaches. Those of us who do generally laugh at the make a buck in the name of Jesus folks.
Muhammad Rasheed - It was my understanding that all Pauline Christians worship the final Hebrew prophet in the line of Isaac (peace be upon the prophets!) as a divine part of the triune godhead ideology.
Is this not accurate?
Tica Mcgarity - If you are interested in what saint Paul actually said on that subject, read the book of Galatians. Only six short chapters. The ONLY teaching we are to follow comes from Jesus. Our teachers may remind us of what Jesus has said... but... adding to that is wrong. If you want a more detailed (and difficult to understand) version ... read the book of Romans.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tica wrote: "The ONLY teaching we are to follow comes from Jesus."
Then why listen to Paul?
Tica Mcgarity - Paul is a teacher who only followed what Jesus taught... and explained how to do that. Central to that is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Jesus taught using poetic language. Understanding and then obeying what Jesus taught is the challenge. Some people are gifted public speakers. There are probably gifted speakers in your faith as well. Our central MESSAGE is that Jesus in the holy son of the living GOD. Anything that deviates from that is to be questioned.
Muhammad Rasheed - Considering the New Testament is composed of writings from other people about Jesus' message, much of which differing in how that "poetic language" is interpreted, I find it problematic.
It would help if there were a separate text composed solely of what the Christ actually taught as revealed to him from God. Do you have access to such a work? The Christian version of the Muslim's Qur'an? Paul's order to you all would make a lot more sense if you had the pure revealed message containing only what Jesus taught straight from his own mouth. Does this make sense?
Tica Mcgarity - My religion also teaches that women are to remain silent in the church. My understanding of that is that men are the teachers ... even though women may teach other women. I am a bit uncomfortable teaching you. I assume that you are a man. Women are not encouraged to have authority over men. Jesus himself was kind and fair to women. As far as I can tell... there were no women who were trained to teach in the way that Jesus trained the twelve men (AKA disciples).
Tica Mcgarity - The gospel of Mathew chapters 4, 5, 6 and seven are specifically what Jesus taught. I can copy / paste those chapters here if you like.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tica wrote: “I am a bit uncomfortable teaching you.”
Fear not since this isn’t a teacher/student relationship, but just a discussion. We are currently seeking to understand each other.
Tica wrote: “I assume that you are a man.”
Your assumption is accurate.
Tica wrote: “Women are not encouraged to have authority over men.”
Show me the teaching from the Christ that confirms this, please. If this instruction from the Christ is missing, then please explain for the record where did you get this instruction and why you accept it as a truth.
Tica wrote: “Jesus himself was kind and fair to women.”
All of the male prophets of God were.
Tica wrote: “As far as I can tell... there were no women who were trained to teach in the way that Jesus trained the twelve men (AKA disciples).”
The Christ Jesus’ job was to preach the Word of the One God to his people, to instruct them in scripture and wisdom. By the NT accounts, there were women among the group he routinely instructed. According to the history of early Christianity, there is a ‘Gospel of Mary’ text which demonstrates that there were indeed at least one woman disciple of Jesus in the record. Since this was the case, on whose authority do you willingly accept a subservient position in this regard?
Tica Mcgarity - Jesus did not train women to be teachers / disciples. Paul also said that women should remain silent in the church.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tica posted: "10 Jesus said to him, 'Away...'"
This is the clue that someone else is telling us what Jesus said. Where is the definitive work that came directly from Jesus' mouth and written down by his devoted, hand-picked disciples? Are all of your scriptures by middle men?
Tica Mcgarity - There are no books where Jesus is the author. We do have eye witness accounts from what people who were in his inner circle saw and heard. Mathew was an educated man.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tica wrote: “There are no books where Jesus is the author.”
This is unfortunate, since he was the messenger of God’s Word. You don’t think such a work is conspicuous in its absence from the library, particularly because of the Christ’s importance?
Tica wrote: “We do have eye witness accounts from what people who were in his inner circle saw and heard.”
Equally unfortunate to the above point is the fact that the body of educated Christian scholars do not at all agree with this comment of yours. According to linguistic study and archaeology, the four gospels were not writ by the men whose names they bear, but by Pauline evangelicals quite removed from the era of the Christ’s earthly lifetime. Without a copy of the actual teachings of Jesus himself to compare what these ‘witnesses’ claimed, it is impossible for me to take these teachings as seriously as you’d like me to.
Tica Mcgarity - The gospel of Mary is not in the bible that I read. Mary was a blessed woman... but not a teacher / disciple as far as I can tell. After Jesus, Mary went to Peter and obeyed his authority. Paul challenged Peter at times. Mary never challenged anyone.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tica wrote: "The gospel of Mary is not in the bible that I read."
Why not? And why does this not outrage you? Please explain.
Tica Mcgarity - Mark was taught by saint Peter, who as a fisherman may have been poorly educated.
Muhammad Rasheed - According to the historic record, and the research of your own Christian scholars, I have no reason to believe that information has anything to do with the current work that bears Mark's name.
Tica Mcgarity - Jesus is the son of the living God. That makes him a great deal more valid than any current, popular, political doctrine. If Mary from Magdalen wrote down her experience with the Lord... well and good. I simply know that it is not in the bible that I read. I am not outraged. I accept that the bible is the text that supports my faith.
Muhammad Rasheed - It doesn't bother you that the evidence of the scriptural record strongly suggests that the concept of the "divine sonship" was not preached by Jesus at all, and was actually invented without authority by Paul?
Tica Mcgarity - The thing is; there are many scholars who have questioned and analyzed the principles of our faith for many years. Some from the point of view of deep faith... and others from the point of view of debunking that very same faith.
Tica Mcgarity - The significant advantage of Christianity is that Jesus is alive today... and... you can ask the Lord your questions. He will absolutely tell you. It is very nice when you hear the Lord's voice for yourself.
Muhammad Rasheed - The significant advantage of Christianity is the hoary age of its institutions, and the power of its global political networks.
Without the text of Jesus himself to instruct the believers, it is severely lacking in the spirituality aspect.
Tica Mcgarity - Actually, Jesus himself declared that he is the fulfillment of prophesy and that he is indeed ONE with the Father. I already posted that for you.
Muhammad Rasheed - You posted someone else's account of what was claimed by others that Jesus said it. Such middleman prose fails to move me as much as it does you, Tica.
Tica Mcgarity - That is why we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Each of us has been given the power to enter into the presence of GOD and see for ourselves. It is worth praying about.
Muhammad Rasheed - That's why we have the revealed message of God straight from the messenger to guide us aright so we may be saved from both our own lusts, and the claims of others trying to manipulate us from within their gold-covered edifices.
I'll pray that you break free of the strongholds of men and learn to look towards your Guardian Lord instead.
Tica Mcgarity - It is not unusual for holy things to be corrupted by selfish individuals. Hasn't that happened in your faith's history as well? That old pearls before swine thing comes to mind.
Tica Mcgarity - Well... my guardian Lord is Jesus. He is alive today! He is still actively involved with each of us as individuals and with the church at large.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tica wrote: "It is not unusual for holy things to be corrupted by selfish individuals. Hasn't that happened in your faith's history as well?"
Sure. That's why we carefully keep separate the claims of what other people said that the messenger said (hadith) from the Holy Revealed Message of the One God to humankind (Holy Qur'an). The latter is conspicuously missing from the canon of Christian literature and this fact is your faith's great weakness.
Muhammad Rasheed - Your Guardian Lord is the One who made both you AND the Christ Jesus. Will you not recognize the truth?
Tica Mcgarity - The totality of our discussion centers on FAITH. No rational debate by either one of us will convince the other. GOD acts in the lives of each individual. GOD meets you where you are in a way that only HE can do. May your life be blessed. I have to go and clean my house now.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tica wrote: "The totality of our discussion centers on FAITH."
Nay. Only half of our discussion centers on faith alone. The other half is composed of the physical, material archaeological record of scripture in the hands of human beings. This is tracked and verified by scholars. If you choose to ignore the findings and label the willful ignorance displayed "faith" then that isn't piety, but something different altogether.
Tica Mcgarity - Take it to GOD in prayer. GOD is the final authority. I agree that silly, human debates are more about our own vanity than the holiness of GOD.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tica wrote: "Take it to GOD in prayer."
??? Should I pray to God to confirm that which was already revealed in His Mercy to be true? lol Clear instruction as to what is true or not isn't missing in my faith, Tica. We do hold the pure revealed message of God, straight from the messenger's mouth, here in our midst. That is our religion's Great Strength. Please pray to God for right guidance, for surely those you have relied upon have led you astray. God alone is indeed the Final Authority, not all of these middle men evangelists who composed your book.
May your life also be blessed, Tica.
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this is something that i thought about deeply. i think there were more egalitarian communities/groups because folk depended on each other to survive. the writings of Baba Oba T'Shaka resonate with me deeply. (Return to the African Mother Principle of Male and Female Equality by Oba T'Shaka)ReplyDelete