Muhammad Rasheed - Human societies have subjected themselves to classism for thousands of years (at least), and the concept of race is now linked to that ancient behavioral trope. The only possible way, realistically, that race can be removed from the American Experience, is if superior high education (ivy league level) was made mandatory training across the board for all citizens, starting from pre-school level. The fruit of that would greatly reduce the poor class population and elevate their next generations into the moneyed classes.
And with classism struck a severe enough blow, ‘race’ will be left looking feeble and defenseless, and even the most die-hard racist will be reluctant to defend it. As long as our society continues to treat the different classes the way they've been treating them over the last 50 years or so, racism will not go anywhere. An attack on poverty… using the tried & true method of teaching the poor classes valuable skills that others are willing to pay top dollar for... will win the majority of the war against racism. I have no doubt of this.
Thought Power Douglas - education...yes...the best way to help the poor is not be one...after that mission is accomplished, then help others see who they really are...as long as the current education system remains the status quo, we will continue to get the results we are currently seeing. self education along with certain schooling are two main ingredients for curing our culture.
Chris Suess - Just what we need more "ivy league education" to fuck everything three times over than what those assholes have already done.
Steven Georgio - Superior Ivy league level education...that is some funny shit.
Steven Georgio - Definitely, more Ivy league educators to teach the absolute of continued racism in america, all the while failing to see the irony that it is the number 1 choice of any immigrant regardless of their color,class or place of origin.
Muhammad Rasheed - lol
Whatever you two understood it to mean when I wrote "superior high education (ivy league level)" was the opposite of what I intended to express. We need to be taught high levels of not only math/science/tech, but also high level business, economics and finance arts, and the critical thinking skills to find solutions to make things happen in our lives. The type of valuable thinking skills needed to leave the legacy of poverty far behind.
Jeremy Travis - If everyone is taught at such a high level, then who will do the jobs that such well-educated people don't want to do?
Muhammad Rasheed - The kids that are up and coming into those fields while they are at the student/trainee level. Easy.
Steven Georgio - The problem with most establishments of "higher lernin" these days is that they tend spend a little too much time concerning themselves with "critical thinking" and "valuable thinking skills"( whatever the hell that even means) and not enough on all the other areas you mentioned above.
Muhammad Rasheed - Steven Georgio wrote: "'critical thinking' and 'valuable thinking skills' ( whatever the hell that even means)"
You just volunteered to get signed up for classes first, Steve. CONGRATS!
Steven Georgio - Yeah, I want to be part of the crowd as well.
Muhammad Rasheed - lol You're part of the crowd now.
Muhammad Rasheed - An America that leaves behind both poverty and racism would be a good thing, Steve. Don't knock it until you try it.
Steven Georgio - Poverty perhaps, but 98% percent of us did leave racism behind, only to have it dragged back up again by those hell bent on never seeing it go away.
Muhammad Rasheed - I remember reading an article about one of the current leaders of the tech industry, and it mentioned that… after a successful career in executive leadership… he decided to start a tech company of his own, and sold it for a few billion dollars. I remember thinking, “Why don’t they teach the skills that enabled him to pull that off in public schools?” Naturally he went to the best high level educational institutions in the country. If we all had those skills, this would truly be the best country in the world. In that kind of America, the poor would be the people who actively decided to be “poor” monetarily, but I’ll tell you this: With those kind of thinking skills they still would want for nothing. They would be problem solvers.
Muhammad Rasheed - Steven Georgio wrote: "Poverty perhaps, but 98% percent of us did leave racism behind..."
Oh? By doing what exactly?
Steven Georgio wrote: "...only to have it dragged back up again by those hell bent on never seeing it go away."
And who would that be? Who are these dastardly villains?
Steven Georgio - The villains are those that succeed and flourish by encouraging division.
Steven Georgio - Not rocket science.
Muhammad Rasheed - Such as...?
Steven Georgio - You tell me Muhammed... or don't you know any who fit this bill?
Muhammad Rasheed - So you are making definitive statements from a place of informed truth, but when I point blank ask you about it, you say, "You tell me, Muhammad?"
lol Yeah, you hurry up and get signed up into those classes, please. There's a lad.
Muhammad Rasheed - Stop talking crazy, please.
Steven Georgio - I'd like to go back to a point you mentioned earlier. Do you honestly believe that the skills necessary to succeed are taught in public schools?
Muhammad Rasheed - Copy/paste the quote from me where I said that the skills needed to end poverty/racism are being taught today in public schools.
Muhammad Rasheed - smh
Muhammad Rasheed - (we'll make sure you get a seat of front, too)
Muhammad Rasheed - My point, Steve, was that the schooling we need to solve these problems ISN'T currently being taught to anyone except the 1%. Our system needs a complete overhaul, with those skills taught to the entire populace so we all can thrive.
How did you miss that?
Steven Georgio - Muhammed, I thought in your earlier paragraph you said "Why don't they teach the skills that enabled him to pull that off in public schools" I didn't say that, did I?
Steven Georgio - Because if that's your point I will tell you BULLSHIT.
Steven Georgio - No ones learning, that certainly doesn't mean it's not being taught.
Muhammad Rasheed - Steven Georgio wrote: "Muhammed, I thought in your earlier paragraph you said 'Why don't they teach the skills that enabled him to pull that off in public schools' I didn't say that, did I?"
The skills that enabled that billionaire to pull off that feat, why don't they teach them in public school so we all can know them? I thought it was clear in context. My bad.
Steven Georgio - I live in NYC, I can show you literally thousands of kids...all nationalities and ethnicities hitting the fucking ball "out a da park" ALL going to public schools, so take that 1% bullshit and can it.
Steven Georgio - Most are not willing to make the EFFORT. End of fucking story.
Steven Georgio - I hate to get personal because it sounds like I'm trying to brag, which I'm not but my son goes to one of the specialized high schools in NYC . He got in and will excel because he like his mates (all colors, shapes and sizes) are willing to do the work to the tune of three hours a night. So please, sell your shit somewhere else.
Muhammad Rasheed - Individual effort is a part of it in the big picture, of course. If the highest quality education available was made mandatory on the public school level... which includes HOW to think most efficiently, and HOW to prepare your life for success instead of just the basic ABCs… it will increase the rate of success, and change the cultural make up of America's ethnic groups that aren't currently high achievers.
Steven Georgio - Gotta go to bed... reread my last post and make it stick. The rule in my house is excellence, no exceptions ...no excuses.
Steven Georgio - It is available for ANYONE who seeks it Goodnight.
Muhammad Rasheed - Steven Georgio wrote: “ALL going to public schools, so take that 1% bullshit and can it. Most are not willing to make the EFFORT. End of fucking story. So please, sell your shit somewhere else.”
You’re missing the point. The point is to eradicate poverty. The majority of the poor… of any ethnicity… have no idea how to get out of that state. Tell them they can pull out of it through education/hard work and they won’t believe you. They treat it like its magic. Like the rich were born “special” in a way that they aren’t. That part is true to a agree though. The type of kids you are talking about are trained in a hard work ethic, and a mindset of success, by traditional cultural techniques passed down through generations, or even in just a couple of generations. In any event, the reason they are poor is because they don’t KNOW. The smaller percentage of the moneyed classes of the country train their kids to know so they can thrive and maintain. The poor don’t know those techniques and values. They need to be taught them and made to recognize their value through mandatory education.
Similar to the model used by Booker T. Washington when he educated the uncouth former slaves into some of America’s greatest success stories. It wasn’t easy, and what it boiled down to was a de-programming them of a poverty mindset, and replacing it with a whole new way of seeing the world. That’s what I’m describing here. You’re arguing against it by talking about the kids that already have that training, and missing my point altogether.
They are poor because they don’t know what to do, and they think WRONG. Successful people think correctly. I want us to train everyone else how to think correctly, too.
Muhammad Rasheed - Individually people sometimes will get the epiphany that they need to do things differently if they want to have different results in their lives and act accordingly, but with the ranks of the poor growing & growing, clearly we can’t count on that phenomenon to cure the poverty problem. We’ll have to use education to solve it with a mass CURE.
Dave Stephens - I had friends.
None of them are artists today, but they SAID they wanted to be artists, they DID have the talent but DID they put in 3 hours a day?
Yes, heck, mostly on the 4 hour round trip on the BUS. Am I very lucky to make a living drawing for a living? Yes. But without that time I put in, luck would have never found me...
Without putting in the time, nobody will learn anything at all, and no government program will FORCE kids to put the time in after school...
Muhammad Rasheed - Yes, the program will need to have a strong accountability side to it, to ensure the success projected. We already know that the people that need it the most have to be trained in recognizing the value of the skills discussed, so it has to come with a certain amount of "Failure is not an option" as part of the program. This will be for their benefit and the whole country's as well.
The truancy enforcement laws will need to be overhauled as well. The model I'm thinking of for this nation-wide change is the one used by Japan, from back when they converted their whole system towards a science/tech focus, and in just a generation or two, became part of the world's technological elite, even surpassing Germany. Yes, individual effort will always be a part of it, but for those who are unaware of the importance of that, they will need to be trained to value it as a lifestyle. That will definitely need to be a vital part of the education: A change in mindset, mentality, & world view.
Dave Stephens - Fear of the "Other" is built-in, rich or poor, all countries, all skin tones, everywhere - no amount or type of education will ever change that genetic reality.
It is a MORAL challenge to surpass it, not an intellectual challenge, and the last I checked, morality begins at home, not in schools at all...
Religion can help as well, but then again, some of the nastiest most bigoted people I have met have been very proud of their church activities…
Ken Krueger - Dave, you are dancing around the answer. Please note you said what you did...because you'd have left yourself open to ridicule had you not. You had to give the religion caveat, as if mentioning the "R" word without saying something negative is going to come back to bite you.
In fact, it IS a moral concern and we have to quit being ashamed to say it.
Muhammad Rasheed - Dave Stephens wrote: “Fear of the ‘Other’ is built-in, rich or poor, all countries, all skin tones, everywhere - no amount or type of education will ever change that genetic reality.”
Fear and mistrust of folk who are different is taught in the home. Babies and small children don’t fear and mistrust other babies based on race, creed, religion, ethnic group/tribe, etc. When they separate and meet each other again later in life, THEN they act different towards each other because they were programmed to.
Dave Stephens wrote: “It is a MORAL challenge to surpass it, not an intellectual challenge, and the last I checked, morality begins at home, not in schools at all...”
It’s 100% an intellectual challenge. People act the way they were trained to act.
Dave Stephens wrote: “Religion can help as well, but then again, some of the nastiest most bigoted people I have met have been very proud of their church activities…”
Religion can absolutely help, but the actual principles that are designed to do so need to be taught by competent subject matter experts.
Ken Krueger - EUREKA!!! WE need a Booker T. Washington!
And we need to figure out how we can convince a Black kids they DO have a chance in this country.
It's so damn obvious they do...look at the White House, yet the very embodiment of that potential success seems to be selling himself as an anomaly.
Ken Krueger - We are NOT THE ENEMY!!!
Muhammad Rasheed - Ken Krueger wrote: "...yet the very embodiment of that potential success seems to be selling himself as an anomaly. Bizarre."
Oh? How is he doing this?
Steven Georgio - Dear Muhammed, I'm sorry I didn't respond to you last night, however six a.m. comes quickly on January mornings in N.Y. Despite this, my son was quick to get out of bed, so he could catch his 6:45 bus for his hour bus ride to his (public) high school in another borough of NYC. The idea AND "critical thought" of there being a "soft racism of low expectations" is a concept that will forever remain lost to people who make post like yours. All the best, Steven.
Muhammad Rasheed - "Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action.
"In addition to possessing context skills to isolate the problem from context, and applicable theoretical constructs for understanding the problem, question at hand, one must be disposed to engage problems and decisions using those skills. Critical thinking employs not only logic but broad intellectual criteria such as clarity, credibility, accuracy, precision, relevance, depth, breadth, significance, and fairness.
"The habits of mind that characterize a person strongly disposed toward critical thinking include a desire to follow reason and evidence wherever they may lead, a systematic approach to problem solving, inquisitiveness, even-handedness, and confidence in reasoning.
"According to a definition analysis by Kompf & Bond (2001), critical thinking involves problem solving, decision making, metacognition, rationality, rational thinking, reasoning, knowledge, intelligence and also a moral component such as reflective thinking. Critical thinkers therefore need to have reached a level of maturity in their development, possess a certain attitude as well as a set of taught skills." [WIKI]
Muhammad Rasheed - Steven Georgio wrote: "The idea AND 'critical thought' of there being a 'soft racism of low expectations' is a concept that will forever remain lost to people who make post like yours."
I’m trying to see what you mean by 'soft racism of low expectations,' and it seems like it is missing the point again. My solution in removing racism involves eradicating poverty from all lower class Americans, which includes the poor among the black communities, as well as the poor whites. It involves striking a blow against classism itself with is far older and stronger than racism, and is cultural in origin and demonstration. People act the way they are trained to act, and whether they are acting to accomplish their goals to reach an affluent higher quality of life or to continue to wallow in poverty, it comes from being trained that way through a self-reinforcing culture that traditionally lacks the tools and practical knowledge of success for whatever reason, and forever long a time period. It’s not permanent though; cultures change. Like the aforementioned Japan, a serious and strict collective effort can turn a destructive trajectory towards a whole new success, and a whole new national destiny. Your phrase 'soft racism of low expectations' doesn’t fit anywhere inside of the vision I’m describing, and it’s not the first comment you’ve made so far that sounds suspiciously like it was a part of a larger, uglier ideology that you’re holding onto based on how you see people. I suspect I know exactly the nature of the mainland ideology that that phrase is coming from, and I reject it out of hand as the very monster I’m proposing to slay.
Steven Georgio - Man...your'e long winded. Look, I embrace the notion you raise about improving our destructive trajectory and creating a new successful national trajectory. I simply say that your premise (based on you mentioning "race" a half dozen times in a two paragraph post) of there still being an endemic system of racism and classism holding us back is complete and utter bullshit. I can't state it any plainer or simpler than that. Unlike you, I don't go for the intellectual claptrap of the intellectual elite (your Ivy leagers) "Critical thinking and theoretical constructs tells us Blah,Blah fucking Blah" As I said earlier, the means to an intellectual and successful end are already there for any and all who make the effort to attain it. So, while the intellectual and political elite organize rally's for the disenfranchised to attend, my son and his friends (White, Black, Yellow and Brown) will be busy working on the successful reality and future they've already envisioned themselves to have.
Muhammad Rasheed - Steven Georgio wrote: "I simply say that your premise of there still being an endemic system of racism and classism holding us back is complete and utter bullshit."
And you simply say this based on what? What facts support this claim?
Steven Georgio - Based on the fact that thousands if not millions of ethnic kids succeed every year, if they in fact make the effort to do so. But, enough Muhammed, stay beautiful...and lost. Please refer any and all future questions to my Black internist, who incidentally grew up in a house(with his six siblings) even smaller than the shoebox my nine brothers and sisters grew up in.
Steven Georgio - Muhammad, I reread the entire link as I like to insure I have given others the benefit of the the doubt in their points... and I will say I do agree with some of your thoughts (ex: the Booker T. paragraph). But, as others have pointed out...exactly whose responsibility is it to instill discipline and make sure kids understand the importance of desiring to achieve? I'm sorry, but there's not some racist scheme that perpetuates a false myth that there's no hope...so why bother. I'm sure you'll disagree, but that's the fault of too many dysfunctional families in inner city communities combined with the misleading leadership that guides them...and a society and culture that celebrates shortcuts. I will remain hopeful that the overwhelming majority will continue moving past the false narrative that bad actors continue to put forward.
Muhammad Rasheed - Steven Georgio wrote: “Based on the fact that thousands if not millions of ethnic kids succeed every year, if they in fact make the effort to do so. But, enough Muhammed, stay beautiful...and lost.”
Okay, I think I’m starting to see where the breakdown is. You are under the impression that because people are able to overcome racist barriers in order to improve their quality of life, that it somehow means that the racism never existed in the first place. The truth of the matter is that racism isn’t an impenetrable barrier preventing anyone from walking through certain doors; it’s a hurdle to be negotiated over. It can be done by the dedicated overcomer, but it definitely exists. The obvious monkey wrench in your point of view is that there absolutely were successful communities of black freedmen living in America DURING slavery. The economic quality of their lives was great (especially during a time period when we were still on a gold standard and the purchasing power of our currency was strong). Would you have told those folk that there was no racism too because they were able to work hard to make their lives financially comfortable?
You seem to have a problem wrapping your mind around what “racism” actually even means, and have made up your very own personal definition for the term at odds with reality, similar to your odd personal definition of what 'critical thinking' is. I noticed that you pooh-pooh the post describing what it means with a flippant disdain.
Steven Georgio - No
Muhammad Rasheed - "No," what, Steve?
Muhammad Rasheed - Steven Georgio wrote: “Muhammad, I reread the entire link, as I like to insure I have given others the benefit of the the doubt with their points [...] I'm sorry, but it's not some racist scheme that perpetuates the false myth that there's no hope...so why bother. I'm sure you'll disagree…”
That’s literally the EXACT OPPOSITE of my point.
Muhammad Rasheed - In every way. smh
Muhammad Rasheed - If my whole point was "there's no hope...so why bother" then this damn status wouldn't even exist.
Muhammad Rasheed - But thank you so much for throwing my whole point against the wall of your unbendable ideology.
Steven Georgio - Muhammed, I'm out the door and will continue later...if you like. Perhaps we agree more than you think, I've just been through too much to allow anyone to even intimate at victimhood, and it appears to be the modus operandi e of most, if not all discussions on race.
Muhammad Rasheed - Steven Georgio wrote: “…but that's the fault of too many dysfunctional families in inner city communities combined with the misleading leadership that guides them...and a society and culture that celebrates shortcuts.”
1.) dysfunctional families
2.) misleading leadership
3.) a culture that celebrates shortcuts
The way to remove these items from the narrative of the poor communities is to train it out of them. Replace them with a new mindset, a new view of what their families can achieve, and a new legacy. Traditionalism alone will have these three items continually passed down for generations to come, so it stands to reason that an aggressive stance to wrench them away and replace them with something new and productive is the solution. It seems like your solution is to stand off to the side shaking your head at them. Do you think that will fix it? According to what you’ve typed here, your son is blessed to have a father that knows what to train/raise him in so he will achieve the successes in life Americans dream of (combined with his own drive/motivation & willingness to go along with the program). For those families who don’t have that kind of mindset, they will have to learn it, and be deprogrammed from self-defeating mentalities and cultural traditions that have not served them.
Steven Georgio wrote: “I will remain hopeful that the overwhelming majority will continue moving past the false narrative that bad actors continue to put forward.”
Considering that the “overwhelming majority” of American citizens were suffering from the dramatic downturn the economy took during the Great Recession, of course I will have to disagree with you. I’m a firm believer that people suffer because they don’t know what to do. Being trained in how to think most efficiently so a person will be a problem solver in any situation is one of the skill sets of successful people… the opposite of the victimhood mentality that you said you hate, and yet you also keep expressing a hatred for that very critical thinking tool that will cure people of that same self-defeating victimhood mentality.
At this point, I think you are either just busting my chops for nothing to be a troll, holding on to a stubborn ideology that you simply refuse to see past because of your own racial/ethnic indoctrination against other people different from you, or you are crazy. I’m still trying to figure out which…
Steven Georgio - O.K. Muhammed I just got back, I will say that your last post is the most reasoned and pragmatic you've posted on this link. Trust me, I'm neither a troll, an ideologue or a racist. Look, I agree with you, people do suffer because they don't know what to do...and they should be taught. My beef with you from the get go is you seem to think that it's societies place to explain the riddle. To you it probably sounds like a ridiculous conservative talking point, but, nobody's listening to Mr Henley, the fourth grade economics teacher. As long as the underclass continues to have 75% of their children out of wedlock the endemic struggle will continue. Attack the real problem and the solution will come, because once the education comes through mentoring (something seriously lacking in the lower class black community) nobody gives a flying fuck whether the oncologist at te hospital is Black /White or fucking green.
Muhammad Rasheed - Steven Georgio wrote: "O.K. Muhammed I just got back, I will say that your last post is the most reasoned and pragmatic you've posted on this link."
lol It's been my point all along. The struggle has been to explain it to you.
Steven Georgio - O.K. fair enough, but when you start saying things like " the 1% are the only ones with access to quality education" you scare me.
Steven Georgio - or intimating that point.
Muhammad Rasheed - Well, you'll have to forgive the fact that a philosophical argument necessarily has to speak in general terms. A reasonable man would recognize that not every citizen would apply to the general terms, hence the word "general."
It's frustrating even to have to point that out.
Muhammad Rasheed - I mentioned Booker T. Washington's method of civilizing the former slaves, with the help of God-fearing altruistic missionaries from the New England states who also very generously came down to teach them how to read and write. The actual technique used was to separate the trainees from those determined to live poor & crazy, and who wanted to hold onto the victim mindset. The ones willing to learn something new did so and turned their lives around. When the 'victim' people saw them, and their new found successes, they volunteered to submit themselves to the program and turned their lives around, too.
But if the effort hadn't been made to make those people change, none of that success would have happened. Of course part of it is that the person has to want to, but most of the time giving them the hope that what they dream of really can happen is enough to kindle that kind of motivation in the individual mind.
Steven Georgio - Look, I also realize that when debating on a computer, certain statements either get zeroed in on or misconstrued. All good. I'm gonna say something that's probably gonna piss you off but from my perspective with the exception of some conservative black intellectuals very few emphasis certain problems in the community (not saying they don't mention them, but rarely do they beat the drum) which is necessary for change...so much easier to preach victimhood. Sorry, but that's my feeling and I'm open to names if you can give them.
Muhammad Rasheed - Steven Georgio wrote: "I'm gonna say something that's probably gonna piss you off..."
You don't think you haven't already done that? Curious.
Steven Georgio - Ha
Muhammad Rasheed - You're very selective in your applied optimistism, Steve. lol
Steven Georgio - The computer does strange things to me, I can get a bit riled and go on autopilot...on occasion I'm surprised my sentences are even half coherent. Alright we've about beat this to death...where's Chris we'll both gang up on him.
Muhammad Rasheed - Sweet! FINALLY! [rubs hands together]
Muhammad Rasheed - ♪ Oh, Chriiiiiis! Where arrrre youuuu...?♫
Steven Georgio - If he doesn't show, I have a fairly accurate imitation: "motherfuckin, cocksmokin liberal asswipe...whatda ya want???"
Muhammad Rasheed - I'm not a 'liberal.' I'm an orthodox Muslim who leans libertarian. Does that sound 'liberal,' really?
Muhammad Rasheed - Even the POTUS I helped elect is a recognized moderate who frequently draws the ire of his demo base (they gave him push back on Obamacare because they felt it was too conservative-friendly, remember? And the GOP actually approved it before they did).
Steven Georgio - What's that you say??? "Muslim...Obamacare...POTUS..." why you no good so-and -so...them there's fightin words.
Steven Georgio - I just read something that reminded me of a point that's relevant to our discussion, and initially led me away from the democratic party years ago. Part of the problem with education, especially for the underclass, is the parties unwillingness to break from the teachers union and allow people in underachieving schools to either opt out in favor of charters or receive vouchers toward private schools. The hypocrisy of a party that claims allegiance and support to an underprivileged voting group but denies them access to first rate education is beyond deplorable. Scream and yell in favor of that and you'd force the system to either improve or actually force politicians and bureaucrats to work for the people rather than the other way around.
Muhammad Rasheed - Steven Georgio wrote: “The hypocrisy of a party that claims allegiance and support to an underprivileged voting group but denies them access to first rate education is beyond deplorable. Scream and yell in favor of that and…”
Your rhetoric is very partisan oriented here. No real solutions-driven speak is going to sound so Washington doctrinal. The very state of our broken policy filled system should prove that. Impotent partisan doctrines that pretend to be solutions to real world problems, that in fact cause more problems, is indeed responsible for the ever widening gap between the poor and middle classes.
Schools used to be set up where anyone from around the city could go to any school they wanted, but in the integration era, laws were passed that forced people to only go to the school in their district. Naturally this made people want to move to other districts if the school in their immediate neighborhood was subpar, but when some of the best schools were in areas where the families couldn’t afford the housing, then naturally the new statistics after that era reflected a decline in school graduates from poorer neighborhoods.
John Kraft - My main issue is why does the Government keep throwing money at our social ills instead of stepping back and looking for the cause instead? So much more is spent on education now with so much less result. With libraries, computers, smart phones, elders all over the place there is no excuse for the rampant stupidity and high school costs.
Muhammad Rasheed - John Kraft wrote: “My main issue is why does the Government keep throwing money at our social ills instead of stepping back and looking for the cause instead?”
The political system is set up where politicians only care about getting votes, not results. Each party has a handful of traditional partisan items that if they SAY they are for, they will get votes. If they say they are against these items they won’t get votes. It absolutely doesn’t matter if the policies created from the items they say they are for work or not.
John Kraft wrote: “So much more is spent on education now with so much less result. With libraries, computers, smart phones, elders all over the place there is no excuse for the rampant stupidity and high school costs.”
Laws were recently passed that will sever the middle man relationship the banks have in the college loan process which will bring those costs down eventually. So that will help. America’s school system in general has been corroding steadily over the last few decades for reasons expressed in the post above.
Steven Georgio - 1-Your point is legitimate Muhammed, but why oppose charters if they are proving to work? It does after all separate those desiring to learn from those that are not, as in your Booker T. Washington example/model. The party most interested in serving the needs of the little man?..the party with dibs on compassion?...WTF, please don't tell me the talking heads on T.V. are lying to me.
Steven Georgio - 2-I disagree with the your point about cost going down. The Government has already controlled the student loan industry for half a decade. it is one of the most profitable industries in the world. (google it) That is part of the whole freaking scam...Create a product..insist everyone needs that product...lend the money (freely) to buy that product...THEN, charge whatever the hell you like for the product. All the while expanding the shit out of the business and keeping your buddies in a lot of meaningless jobs (Can you say " I got a degree in Psychology /social justice.") On the private side, If the government subsidizes the cost of a product, it is not in the interest of the supplier to lower his prices Keep throwing money at it and they'll figure a way to spend it.
Muhammad Rasheed - Steven Georgio wrote: “1-Your point is legitimate Muhammed, but why oppose charters if they are proving to work?”
I’m definitely not talking about charter schools, since they didn’t start appearing the country until the early ‘90s (Minnesota wrote the first charter school law in the United States in 1991). The public schools used to be set up on that era’s version of a Free Market system, where you could go to whatever you felt could best serve your needs (unless they had a “no blacks allowed” policy, of course). High achievers, who often had strict parents with high expectations, would travel to the other side of the city to go to a great school that served their needs for achieving a better lifestyle. But then those “neighborhood school only” laws were passed which prevented the people from being able to do this, and since the curriculums in the various schools, and the teaching, were by no means equal, the poor suffered as usual.
There was one school in DC at the time that happened to be in a very poor neighborhood, but the quality of education was extremely high – high enough in fact for the students there to routinely outperform the white schools. The secret was that black PhDs and professors weren’t allowed to teach in white academic institutions, and the few black colleges didn’t have enough slots for those positions, so interestingly, this little all-black Washington DC high school had a faculty of super teachers with advanced degrees that, most importantly, had a zero tolerance for nonsense. Strict, like-minded parents from around the city made sure to send their kids there, and as that school’s reputation grew, blacks would move to DC specifically so their kids could attend it. Was it worth it? The Who’s Who of pioneering blacks at the time (The first black THIS, the first black THAT) were all graduates. It routinely churned out high-achieving black superheroes. So what happened? The integration era happened, and this super school’s Kryptonite was the changing of school zoning laws. Now people were not allowed to send their kids to any school they wanted to, only to the school in their neighborhood. The high achievers now had to attend lower quality neighborhood schools with vastly inferior faculty, and the impoverished and very non-serious students surrounding the super school, quickly disgusted those teachers, eventually causing them to quit. Even though that school still exists today, it is a pathetic shadow of its former self, currently only pretending to be the super school of its founding, coasting on memories of its glory days.
Steven Georgio wrote: “It does after all separate those desiring to learn from those that are not, as in your Booker T. Washington example/model.
No, in the old system, the high achievers who were serious about learning could actively seek out like minds and the schools that fit them best. Today they will force you to stay in he school from the neighborhood your parents can afford. There was a case recently were a lady falsified some occupancy documents and lied about where they lived so her child cold attend a superior school. When the school found out they had her arrested, and they absolutely threw the book at her, presumably to teach others the lesson that they better not try it themselves. They treated her trying to get her kid a better education the same as if she had actually shot up the school. btw it’s items like that that make your comments about there not being anymore racism seem so naïve. People aren’t going to change if they simply don’t know any better, and no effort has been made in any way to train them in something new so they will do new stuff. What training took place that would debrief the nation from its collective psychosis caused by centuries of chattel slavery in the “land of the free?” After slavery, the KKK formed and took their plantations back and created the sharecropping institution (slavery lite), followed by the jim crow era, followed by active, angry resistance to allowing blacks equal rights. The generation involved in that last part are still alive today! lol So why would you think that racism didn’t exist anymore? Can you really be under the impression that old white people AREN’T the power bloc in this country? The entire nation is tilted in that demographics’ point of view as default “normal.” That’s why pitiful band aid efforts to even the playing field (like the broken and ineffective Affirmative Action policy) are hated so much: That group is afraid of losing its power and is ferociously critical of anything that looks like it’s trying to “redistribute” it.
Muhammad Rasheed - Steven Georgio wrote: “2-I disagree with the your point about cost going down. The Government has already controlled the student loan industry for half a decade. it is one of the most profitable industries in the world.”
I know, it was referred to as a “sweetheart deal in federal law” that guaranteed billions of dollars in profits for the banks to offer student loans. Obviously the students weren’t the sweethearts in the deal. But as I said, recently new policies were put in place to remove it free up Americans from that evil scam. Oddly, even though the GOP was the first to support it, now they are threatening to repeal it the first chance they get. They are a lot of things, but “for the people” is clearly not one of them.
Steven Georgio - Muhammed, I meant...allowing kids NOW to go to charters would separate those desiring from those not. I will say this, I do agree with a lot of what you say, and, of course, don't agree with some, but the effort you put in is incredible...and appreciated. Two quick points...In your first paragraph You mentioned "strict parents with high expectations" two or three times, you mentioned "high achievers" twice, so clearly, I think we would agree that although there are clearly obstacles to the problem of black underachievement in our society, the problem is definitely more of an internal one than an external one...no? You also brought up a racial point that I was going to speak about yesterday.."the power bloc in this country." Clearly, we can go around the country and find plenty of people who will flat out tell you, "I hate black people." I went to a wedding in the sticks of Pa., where at a bar, some hillbilly fuck got up, walked over to me, as I was standing in front of my brother and his black husband and said "let me see what this niggers up to." Thank god he was too stupid to realize he was not only black,but gay. So, yes, I get it. But, I will tell you, if the shoes were reversed, there are plenty of places where people would say "what the fuck is this cracker doing here." BUT, here is the point, the numbers have decreased to an almost invisible degree, for the most part, NOBODY GIVES A FUCK. More importantly, YOUR WRONG, the people moving and shaking the country in the 21st century and taking us to the next level in every single area of relevance "the power bloc" as you say, are NOT racist, most weren't even born 50 to 60 years ago when the real struggle happened that some would like to imagine is still happening today. I guess this is about perspective, but from mine, it's a dead or at least a dying issue that some simply won't let go of because it's not in their interest to do so.
Muhammad Rasheed - Steven Georgio wrote: "In your first paragraph You mentioned "strict parents with high expectations" two or three times, you mentioned "high achievers" twice, so clearly, I think we would agree that although there are clearly obstacles to the problem of black underachievement in our society, the problem is definitely more of an internal one than an external one...no?"
1.) If I want it, and I am a problem solver, I will find a way to get it (teaching critical thinking/problem solving skills on a basic level is important, even though you are treating the concept like the devil itself). 2.) If I DON'T want it, and you are offering it to me, I'm not going to take it. That means somewhere I need to be trained into the value of what you are offering me. Both the internal & external are needed for success, and if one is missing (for WHATEVER reason), it won't hurt the country at ALL to provide both for it's citizens. Not at all. That next generation... trained in how valuable a high quality education really is for a successful life... will BE that next generation of strict parents who raise those basically-trained high achievers ready to Make Shit Happen. These will be the future job makers.
Muhammad Rasheed - Steven Georgio wrote: "Clearly, we can go around the country and find plenty of people who will flat out tell you, 'I hate black people.'"
That's precisely why I wanted to pop you upside the back of your head for your "racism is over in 95% of the country!" kumbaya.
Muhammad Rasheed - Steven Georgio wrote: "...the numbers have decreased to an almost invisible degree..."
Tell me why do you think that, Steve?
Muhammad Rasheed - Steven Georgio wrote: "More importantly, YOUR WRONG, the people moving and shaking the country in the 21st century and taking us to the next level in every single area of relevance 'the power bloc' as you say, are NOT racist, most weren't even born 50 to 60 years ago when the real struggle happened that some would like to imagine is still happening today. I guess this is about perspective, but from mine..."
These are the children of that generation, and those parents (who were picketing in savage anger from my generation been bussed out to their neighborhood schools in the early '70s) are still alive and influential. Look at the controversial emails hacked from Sony, corp. Why do you think the children of that old power bloc aren't racist today? Do you just feel that they aren't based on a generous opinion of your people? Tell me your evidence for this.
Muhammad Rasheed - And I think it's about time you tell me what "racism" actually means to you.