Friday, June 17, 2016

Churchill's Anti-Islam Drivel Revisited

John Justin Green - I hought punctilious was a Vance invention but here is Churchill using it regading the mohamedmen

That religion, which above all others was founded and propagated by the sword—the tenets and principles of which are instinct with incentives to slaughter and which in three continents has produced fighting breeds of men—stimulates a wild and merciless fanaticism. The love of plunder, always a characteristic of hill tribes, is fostered by the spectacle of opulence and luxury which, to their eyes, the cities and plains of the south display. A code of honour not less punctilious than that of old Spain is supported by vendettas as implacable as those of Corsica.

Donovan S. Brain - I've seen that world over and over in connection with duels and feuds.

Geoff Freeman - I've often thought some of his words were invented but then come across them later. Threnody was one.

Paul Rhoads - nuncupatory is a real word but Jack gives it another sense.

Deuce Richardson - Churchill was a master of the English language. Always a good model, IMO.

Till Noever - And I just happened to have re-read The Dying Earth collection, and that is riddled with what looks like neologisms that aren't.

Deuce Richardson - Everybody thought Wolfe was creating neologisms for TBotNS. All in existence.

Michael Reynolds - Percebs are real

Muhammad Rasheed - John wrote: “I hought punctilious was a Vance invention but here is Churchill using it regading the mohamedmen."

“mohamedmen,” and other similar terms, suggest that the followers of that faith worship Muhammad the prophet-founder of Al-Islam, mimicking how the Christian worships their prophet, but this is not the case. The Muslim worships the One God of Abraham alone and only follow the example and technique of Muhammad to please their Creator.

John  wrote quoted: “That religion, which above all others was founded and propagated by the sword—the tenets and principles of which are instinct with incentives to slaughter and which in three continents has produced fighting breeds of men—stimulates a wild and merciless fanaticism.”

None of this is true. Were it so – that approximately a billion Muslims worldwide had the attitude you claim, then all of you would be Muslim or dead.

The religious message spread the same way any new thought package does, as it captures the interest of the populace, while the physical empire of the Muslim World -- under some of the competing, greedier rulers -- was often expanded by military conquest. These are two completely different items, though I can see why those with a penchant for vilifying anything different or alien from their own comfort zones would be disinclined to attempt to discern between the two.

Deuce Richardson - You do realize that JJG was simply quoting Churchill to show the prior use of a word, right? Your reply says "John Justin Green wrote: 'That religion, which above all others (...)" He did not. He quoted. Calm down.

Muhammad Rasheed - Ah. Sorry. I thought he was performing his "Vancean Speak" at my expense.

I've encountered Churchill quotes before that were courteously cited as such.

Muhammad Rasheed - They were equally anti-Muslim in tone and verse. The opinions of people from the battlefield can't be expected to be objective. Nor accurate.

John Justin Green - Well I do not agree with a thing you posted about Islam. And there is not any point in you trying to continue. I have my understanding from as solid a foundation as there is on this. The term Mohamedmen was used in Churchills time and it fits then as well as now what is witnessed. It is derogatory to you but I am at all interested in appeasing you.

Muhammad Rasheed - John wrote: "And there is not any point in you trying to continue."

In my experience, that's the typical response from those who lack any true knowledge about the subject they vilify.  This attitude does you little credit, John.

Muhammad Rasheed - Tell me... between the two of us, which demonstrates the "fanatical" traits you are supposed to be condemning in a billion of my co-religionists composed of literally every single ethnic group and culture on earth?

Paul Rhoads - Churchill was correct.

Islam was propagated by the sword starting at its origen in the 7th century. In the 8th century it subjugated all of Christian Africa. ln the 9th century Charles Martel chased the armies of Islam from France. Only in the 16th century were they driven from Spain, and in the 17th century they again beseiged Vienna. ln the 19th century the piracies and enslavements of the Muslim forces were still such that Jefferson was forced to make war on them. The prophet himself was a man of war.
ln lslam it's convert, submit or die. Nothing has changed.

Muhammad Rasheed - Ugh! Et tu, Paul? I'll admit to disappointment here.

Muhammad Rasheed - Paul wrote: “Churchill was correct.”

No, he was not.

Paul wrote: “Islam was propagated by the sword starting at its origen in the 7th century.”

Islam was never spread by the sword. Aspects of the Muslim World Empire practiced expansionism via military conquest, but that isn’t the same thing. The early Muslim community of the 7th century were actively persecuted by the powerful pagan tribes of Mecca, who feared a loss in pilgrimage revenue should the uncompromising monotheistic message take hold. All of those desperate battles were defensive in nature for the Muslims, and all of the spreading of the faith – eventually culminating in 10,000+ converts converging upon the Holy City to take it from their pagan enemies without a drop of blood shed – was the perfect symbol of how Islam really spread. When the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) dictated letter invites to the world leaders of the time, bidding them to convert to the new faith, he received mixed responses. Some simply ignored him, some politely declined, others asked for more information and sent for envoys, while the most extreme received the message as a declaration of war and a challenge to their sovereignty, and attacked. Defense made up the nature of the wars the Muslims dealt with in that era, and inadvertently aided in the building up of a new empire that wouldn’t have been necessary if those rulers hadn’t had been so paranoid jumpy.

Paul wrote: “In the 8th century it subjugated all of Christian Africa.”

The Christian African, as well as Semite Christians around the Middle East, were well prepared to receive the message on an intellectual level based on them all expecting the arrival of “that prophet” predicted within their own scripture at the time. The centuries of epic debates between the two religions’ scholars had not yet resulted in the Christian theologians retconning the content of their Book, so both groups were still on the same page as to who the Christ Jesus (pbuh) meant when he said he HAD to go so that the paracletus could come after him. Despite there no doubt being some small-minded and greedy Muslim rulers who may have attacked Christian lands for no other purpose than because they wanted to add the trophies to the record of their personal glory, the Christian of that day converted easily because he recognized the Truth of his Lord when he heard it. Today, 1,500 years of anti-Islam propaganda (aided by folk like your precious Churchill) must be laboriously stripped away first.

Paul wrote: “ln the 9th century Charles Martel chased the armies of Islam from France. Only in the 16th century were they driven from Spain…”

After 800 years of rule that built up Spain into a technological land of learning that benefited everyone who touched it, except the hateful Christians at the time who switched roles with the Jewish tribes of the prophet’s day to express their “scriptural envy.” Spain immediately fell into a shadow of its former glory after Ferdinand and Isabella chased off their fellow People of the Book. Your interpretation of the history is as shameful as the deeds of the two hater monarchs.

Paul wrote: “…and in the 17th century they again beseiged Vienna. ln the 19th century the piracies and enslavements of the Muslim forces were still such that Jefferson was forced to make war on them. The prophet himself was a man of war.”

Now you are well into the portion of history in which the European cartel powers were actively breaking the non-white world down for their trademarked exploitation and colonialism, so the flavor of their war against the Muslim World was quite different from what you are expressing between the lines, and the reason why Churchill’s opinions of the religion are worthless in the extreme.

Paul wrote: “ln lslam it's convert, submit or die. Nothing has changed.”

At this point you may now stop pretending you know what Islam entails before it starts getting embarrassing for you.

Paul Rhoads - ... old hat! You, my poor friend, are at best a programmed ignoramous stupidly working for masters whose ends you are blind to.

Your sellective history and tendentious interpretations inspire pity.

Ah yes: poor good Mohammed (with his 20 wives including 9 year olds) nicely requsting that the world believe his creed! How unfairly he was treated!!! Kind of like Jesus' Passion ...

Muhammad Rasheed - By contrast you are of course asking me to uncritically accept the European White Supremacist Ideology interpretation of history in its place? lol

You're certainly going to have to do better than that and your petty insults. You're showing your tells by the way.

Either battle me for real or admit defeat with honor. I do not care for a less honorable third option for one of my fellow Vance fans. I consider you better than that.

En garde, Rhoads! Have at thee!

Paul Rhoads - Yes, l want you to accept Churchills "version" of history, because it is true, and abandon your half-baked propaganda points which you have not ever thought through. For then my respect for you would rise, and we would be nearer the ideal of friendship.

Muhammad Rasheed - Ha! I admire your clever retort, with it's awe-inspiring amount of indoctrination, brainwashing, nonsense, spiteful hatred for truth, and drooling foolishness crammed into so tight a space. Unfortunately I can't use it for anything more practical than a door stop.

Paul Rhoads - ...hmmm ... l wonder why you constantly apply the qualification "spiteful hatred" to any point of disagrement... oh yes: it's a standard lefty tactic! l have detected in you the famous left-islamist alliance!! now we proceed - if l can sort out these damn branching threads!! l need some elbow room...

Muhammad Rasheed - Just go ahead and post your response at the bottom of the thread for expediency.

Michael Reynolds - Churchill was writing at least 100 years ago, and his opinions were partly shaped by having fought at Omdurman

Paul Rhoads - Churchill was the greatest historian of the 20th century.

Muhammad Rasheed - Apparently he was a bigoted monster.

At least a pretend effort towards objectivity is a reasonable prerequisite to such a title. Churchill lacked even this.

Deuce Richardson - Churchill fought at Omdurman, but that quote was from THE STORY OF THE MALAKAND FIELD FORCE (ie, they were fighting Afghans). I've read it and THE RIVER WAR.

Bodwyn Wook - "The more close-to-the-bone cultures throughout the Reach time-for-time have shown indisputably a way of getting over on societies of peer-reviewed specialists." [Unspiek Bodissey, Excellent Baron. _Analects_, Fifth Folio].

John Justin Green - Can you make more clear? What here in these posts correspond with the close to bone culture and what is the peer review specialist? And what is Excellent Baron_Analects_fith folio?

Bodwyn Wook - Baron Bodissey, in addition to his massive compendium, _Life_ & cited many times by the gentleman composed many other works NOT alluded by Mr Vance in his oeuvre as published in Old Earth in this turn of the round. 'Close to the bone' is but another way of asserting the Spenglerian idea of cultural competition. Briefly, as established systems burgeon, they decline _essentially_ into civilisations, complete with professionalisms become more & more opaque & unaccountable; in this sequence, then, civilisations are a breaking wave, the efflatus of an initial dynamic creative, or 'cultural' impulse. Sometimes, as in Late (Gaean) Antiquity, in the case of the Roman principate & some centuries since later the Roman adoption of Christianity, they generate renewals from within; there may be an analogy here with a recrudescent Islam that indeed is now entering its Early Modern period. Civilisations in general terms pop in & out of existence no particular order & hence 'progress' is largely subjective. This is implicit in the Vancean canon in which waves of Gaean men (& 'their' irksome females) all spread through an ever-going Reach, each set-up then finding its fate in Time ever more remote, through a process of what Mr Vance [following the Excellent Baron] denominated 'divergent evolution'. I hope this helps, w/kindest regards, Wook, CC [retd] & 73rd.

Muhammad Rasheed - BraVO, Bodwyn! Well DONE! *applause*

John Justin Green - Im wondering, since this is a small group and this post is about neologism, if Facebook is infested with Muslim propagandists ready to pounce on anything reflecting percieved islamic ugliness. Really pretty creepy that we get this here.

Michael Reynolds - Thing is, you gave the full Churchill quote, more than just the neologism, and it reflected some fairly crass opinions that were more in vogue 100 years than now.

John Justin Green - Those opinions are becoming popular again.

Michael Reynolds - Not without reason. Even so, it's a stretch to infer that all--or even most--Muslims are wild and merciless fanatics.

Paul Rhoads - where does Churchill "infer" that "all/most" muslims are fanatics? Sheesh!
As Vance readers it behooves us to read accuratly!!!

Muhammad Rasheed - Paul wrote: "As Vance readers it behooves us to read accuratly!!!"

lol Be careful here, Paul, because the Qur'an of the Muslims is very precise regarding the very items Churchill claimed, and you support. The fact that your idol painfully missed out on your stated obligations that we as Vance readers are behooved to perform, prove that neither he nor you were aware of exactly what the religion's message actually is per the instructions of the One God Himself. Being forced to instead rely on the examples of the high profile poor Muslim representatives to base your knowledge, it puts you at a disadvantage in a discussion on the topic.

Paul Rhoads - Does it now! are making so many assumptions here, my friend, that l hesitate where to begin. How about we start with your "One God"?

Muhammad Rasheed - Paul wrote: "Does it now!"


Go ahead. En garde.

John Justin Green - What thing are you refering to? Should we then entome all thongs that islamists call ofensive in a vault never to be heard? Is this some new better world were exchange is limited to that which incites no complaint? To hell with that! That is not even the full quote! You should read the whole thing and other islamic related prose of his. It is remarkable. You would not get the chance to experience it at all if we appease this Thing you allude to.

Michael Reynolds - I have read the full account. It reflects the opinions of a young man in the 1880s who spent time fighting (on horseback) against Muslims in Afghanistan and the Sudan who were indeed pretty savage.

John Justin Green - I guess some of this group live on Great Brittian or Europe where you punish each other for unwanted opinion. Is there also effort to abolish the record of past critical opinions?
The hardest thing about respect - which means observing and honoringboundaries - is you have to put up with others being wealthier than you and taking positions you do not approve of. Saying we have freedom of the press or opinion is meaningless otherwise.

Michael Reynolds - Sorry you feel anyone is punishing you. It's just normal Facebook give and take.

Michael Reynolds - "Punishment" is when you fall into the hands of Lens Larque

Muhammad Rasheed - If you honestly believe that a polite challenge to your claims is a "punishment," then please stop pretending to be mentally astute.

John Justin Green - What did I claim that you have trouble with? Do you not believe the quote is real? Do you not believe I am unconcrrned with your taking offense? What claim have I made that you challenge? The use of Mohamedmen? What?

John Justin Green - The clsim of punishment? Your posts speak for themselves.

Muhammad Rasheed - To be honest I have lost all interest in the conflict, since I find the duel with Rhoads' infinitely more stimulating than your cowardly refusal to trade in a real discussion.

John Justin Green - I just dont look at my phone as often as you two. I can guess another claim I made was you being a propagandist. We could discuss that?

Muhammad Rasheed - Discuss whatever you like after I first run Rhoads through...

Geoff Freeman - Here's Navarth with the weather....

Michael Reynolds - LOL

Muhammad Rasheed - @John Justin Green... From my perspective, you're taking a hard and hateful stance against someone you don't know at all by deliberately insulting them and then refusing to engage with a fellow Jack Vance fan in a polite discussion to even attempt to understand someone else's point of view on a topic you don't know much about.

Did the entire populace of your home planet get captured by "mohamedmen" and sold into slavery while the child you and your grandfather watched? That's the only thing that can help explain this over-the-top hatred from you. If this is about an "Arab" thing, I'm not even from those tribes... I'm a Black American.

Geoff Freeman - The Mohademon Princes?

Muhammad Rasheed - *reaches for lightsaber*

Donovan S. Brain - I work at a big library; we renovated some years back and had to move all the books. I was on the top floor when a young Middle Eastern guy asked me to help him find the section on Islam. He had consulted the posted list of subjects and was still lost, and was a bit insulted when we realized it was on that list as 'Mohammedanism.' I had to explain that no one knew what 'Islam' meant in the 70s, which was obviously how long that had been posted. Computers and IT were under 'Data Processing.' We were starting to giggle by then. We made sure Chemistry wasn't listed as 'Alchemy,' and I took one of the lists downstairs and showed it to Circulation. They had a new one downloaded and posted by the next morning, and I was able to pass along their thanks to the student a day or so later. "Mohammedanism'" is an outdated term, but I never really heard it used as a pejorative. For that you'd go to 'Musselmen.'

But seriously, folks, this is no place to attempt to sort the intricacies of religion. Religions are generally birthed in blood and pain, like people, and they survive by tooth and nail. Even peaceful Buddhists go to war. And yet, like people, they all coexist in the world, and if they can do it on a grand scale, we can do it on a small one.

Muhammad Rasheed - I agreed, Donovan, and with an equal spirit of comradeship and good will. Just allow me to carve my name into Paul Rhoads' belly with my rapier right quick to make sure the group friendship lesson is properly embedded for posterity.

Paul Rhoads - please proceed Rasheed!   :)   I find no disagreement between the most robust dialectic and fundamental friendliness.

Muhammad Rasheed - No, after YOU, sir! Please set before us all your no doubt fraudulently manufactured "One God" reference with which you were vainly planning to win our duel. The analysis and resulting blow up in your face is a lesson we can all learn.

Paul Rhoads - "Messieus les Francais: tirez le premiers!"  :)

Very well then! l like your Chivalrous spirit - you remind me of Saladin - but please do not think l meerly want to win: by winning l help YOU, and that is my greater hope.
(see following...)

Muhammad Rasheed - And stick to English! Your half-civilized arm flapping is difficult enough to stomach without the sight of you wrapping it in the tongue of an over-loose, foppish dandy.

Donovan S. Brain - "you remind me of Saladin" OMG, not another Crusade in the making? Quick, everyone, to the fenestrations! Get the lead boiling.

Paul Rhoads - now now John! our friend here is a man of honor - in the slippry muhammadan mode, l grant you, but we should show ourselves to be up to the mark!

Muhammad Rasheed - You'd better! And hurry up with your post, Rhoads', as my rapier will rust away waiting for your strike!

John Justin Green - I am trying! He has created paranoia! He has derived from some single concept many around it. He decides I am hateful. I am uncaring but I did not think this was the same as hate. Maybe I am wrong?

Muhammad Rasheed - Worry less about being wrong (because you are) and focus more on getting your slipshod sword game up to snuff!

John Justin Green - Ah there it is! I am ready.

Muhammad Rasheed - We'll see. I'll cut this one down to size first, and then test your wishywashy mettle.

Paul Rhoads - As for language l shall speek aa l please! Any failier to misunderstand will be just that: failier!

Donovan S. Brain - I suggest paintballs at thirty paces, or perhaps a two-man hadaul.

Muhammad Rasheed - Should I trust a Euro-ethnic to stick by the paintball rules then? This bilingual buffoon can barely stick to his posting agreements on Facebook!

Paul Rhoads - Ah, more taunts! ... just you wait until l untangle myself from these confounded threads...

Muhammad Rasheed - Your confounded thoughts is what you mean! Take your time.

Muhammad Rasheed - You've had plenty of practice in tying those into knots!

Paul Rhoads - ...argh! ...

Paul Rhoads - ... and this "smart" phone keyboard! .... ah, for the good old days on non-virtual reality and good iron...

Muhammad Rasheed - Right, it's the phone's fault, the thread's fault, your thoughts' fault...

Just surrender, Rhoads! In the grand French tradition!

Paul Rhoads - Never! just you wait.. you will soon be eating your words.

Muhammad Rasheed - zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

Muhammad Rasheed - (i'll freely admit this is the kind of exchange i expected to abound when i first joined this group)

Donovan S. Brain - If you two can reach an accord on this, you will be benefactors of humanity and be carried around in sedan chairs by neutraloids for the rest of your lives.

Muhammad Rasheed - @Donovan... I'm glad to hear you say so, since I enthusiastically share this opinion! Unfortunately for Rhoads it will necessitate him hanging from the gibbet for his foolishness.

Muhammad Rasheed - He may lack an equal enthusiasm.

Bodwyn Wook - No conflict, NO literature, alas,

Paul Rhoads - ...first of all, what is a non Euro-ethnic (your term) doing on our aire and speaking our tougne? l accuse you of being a warrior in the army of the "prophet", a soldier in the anti-occidental, anti-christian leftist-islamic alliance. How do you plead? Will you fly your true colors or must l strike you down as an infiltrator?

Donovan S. Brain - He's too brash and confident to be an infiltrator. And he can't be an invader because he was allowed to join the group.

Paul Rhoads - stand asside of stike out at this rascal! this maze of threads will trip us up!

Muhammad Rasheed - ENGLISH!!

Paul Rhoads - Do you deny or do you confirm??

Muhammad Rasheed - I prefer to finish our duel by spilling your blood on the group floor after you finally decide to strike with your "One God" point.

Should I argue it for you then?

Muhammad Rasheed - Perhaps you should pass that baton off to John, who's currently chomping at the bit to join the fray.

Muhammad Rasheed - You holding up the battle because of your twisted thoughts or whatever isn't fair for the other soldiers involved. Have a care.

John Justin Green - The ambiguity between violent threat and joke is straining. Increase joke perception to maintain you taqiyya.

Muhammad Rasheed - (but that was most of the fun)

Muhammad Rasheed - Are you really going to switch from cowardly scallywag to squeamish grandmother figure?

Paul Rhoads - try any tactic you like - l will do the same.

l hereby denounce you as a leftist-islamist ready to spout any distortion which promotes your identity politics. Be warned: you are provoking an American, pro-western, Christan Vance reader. Thia will end badly for you. No virtual enemy has survived me yet.

Muhammad Rasheed - I think we need to recruit Vance fans with more force, gumption and wherewithal...

Muhammad Rasheed - Apparently Rhoads' tactic is to utter The Spell of the Stalling Arm Flap, followed up by the Jazz Fingery Hocus Pocus, to dazzle me with the force of his anti-Islam argument.

Impressive, really. If not overly-persuasive.

Muhammad Rasheed - I suspect John will actually turn out to be the break-out star during this exchange based on a hint or two...

Paul Rhoads - Islam - as a religion - ia a simple Chistian heresy (Arianism in particular.) It's scripture is a pastiche of biblical theology and primitive arab animism. Mohamad was a clever war chief ("chife"!) whose talents were limited to fanatasising his followers by sacralising their lusts. The rest of muslim history follows from this.

Donovan S. Brain - And have you stopped beating your wife?

Muhammad Rasheed - Is this pap what I've waited the last hour and a half for?

Paul Rhoads - The great muslim contribution to science and the progress of civilization: ZERO.
Can you name another? l think not.

Muhammad Rasheed - lol

Muhammad Rasheed - You will die exquisitely.

Muhammad Rasheed - First I will go pray, for you and your poor future widow and orphans, and bless this group for finally waking up... and then you may enjoy your belly full of steel.

You're welcome.

Muhammad Rasheed - You may request your favorite condiment now as you like.

Donovan S. Brain - Got any Grey Poupon?

Muhammad Rasheed - Not YOU! You haven't even tossed your hat in the circle.

Donovan S. Brain - Do I look like I'm wearing a hat?

Paul Rhoads - lol yourself. People are watching. l have told you what you are and what you are defending. And you stand there giggling. this amounts to being thrust through.

Donovan S. Brain - "you stand there giggling. this amounts to being thrust through" Or being tickled by a really short, blunt sword?

Paul Rhoads - not good. You swagger in here with your leftist pro-islam "talking points", you proclame youself a vigorous debater, and all we get is "" ?

Muhammad Rasheed - It means your sloppy, anti-scholarship, biased rhetoric was easily side-stepped, and now your time on earth is at an end. First I have to pray and break today's fast (it's Ramadan in case you infidels were unaware). I'll be back.

Bodwyn Wook“Persons in nosological conflicts conducted on levels mainly more & more abstracted from reality do best when maintaining, for themselves at least, the suave tones of some ironic distance.” [Unspiek Bodissey, Excellent Baron, _Ruminations_, Vol xxiii]

Paul Rhoads - Jehad? Murders?

... what a surprise...

Muhammad Rasheed - DUELS involve murder! It has a long and respected tradition! We can't just toss out the 'murder' aspect of it! What kind of duel would that be?

Donovan S. Brain - I think that if both parties are willing to duel past first blood, it can't really be murder.

Muhammad Rasheed - Exactly!

You're not as worthless as your purple bulbous head would first present!

Donovan S. Brain - Aren't we supposed to settle this by having horses race while dragging icons of the gods behind them? Or dumping the icons in a tank and seeing which one floats?

Muhammad Rasheed - ???


Donovan S. Brain - It was Vance's solution in one of the books.

Paul Rhoads - Dear Bodwyn, you are not living up to your namesake how did not hesitate to deport Yips at gunpoint.

Bodwyn Wook - Yips yapping no longer are the concern particularly of an old (!) lawman now enjoying his well-earned re-incarnate sojourn in Old Earth.

Paul Rhoads - its the killing of wives and childen l'm talking about - duh.

Muhammad Rasheed - "widows & orphans" are the ones that SURVIVED the tragedy, genius. See the main flaw in knowing one too many languages?


John Justin Green - Im not jumping at a bit. I actually have to travel and this is holding me up. I was trying to find a link to a very offensive article about the oldest origins of islam. The pagan precursor apparently was a rock fallen from the sky. God was female and of the moon. Mecca now holds in in the big rock ediface which use to hold all items of all the religions. Maybe it is new to Muhammad. I will get back to you on it.

Muhammad Rasheed - I know what you're referencing, and that wasn't the origins of the faith. Over time the pagans usurped the Ka'aba temple that Ismail and his father originally built in dedication to the One God alone. Muhammad came to restore the House to its original purity.

Muhammad Rasheed - ...and you all are now holding ME up because it is now sunset.

Paul Rhoads - Kalzibah triumphed so many times that....

Muhammad Rasheed - You need a REAL computer.

John Justin Green - All we need do is duel near sunset and he will have to stop to pray. Then we lop off his head!

Muhammad Rasheed - [eyes squint]

Not so fast. I'm sure there is an out for that contingency described within the scrolls.

Paul Rhoads - Dear fellow, perhaps you could learn that insults mean nothing.

You wanted an attack: you have it. Now, defend yourself or all will see that you are bested.

I call you a leftist islamist inteint on the trimph of those pervers doctrins, and you reply...?

Muhammad Rasheed - You're the one that took a good 4 hours to type 80 words of shallow drivel with your thumbs, right?

I'm positive you can wait another half an hour for me to pray and eat. Patience.

Muhammad Rasheed - Bear in mind I have not yet decided whether I'll finish your switching body with a belly stab or a hanging. You should be nicer, really.

Paul Rhoads - ...ha! l have no patience for futher evation. The man won't fight.

Muhammad Rasheed - oh, my God...

Muhammad Rasheed - A belly stab it is!

Muhammad Rasheed - With salt on it!

Paul Rhoads - l'm nice as need be. Review the whole thead.

Now you are just clowning.

Muhammad Rasheed - I'M IN SACRED RITUAL MODE!!!

Muhammad Rasheed - DAMMIT!!!

Paul Rhoads - .. John, quick, lop off the head!

Muhammad Rasheed - *closes door*

Paul Rhoads   :D

Paul Rhoads - You got it!

Paul Rhoads - An admirable stroke, John!!

Paul Rhoads - too late  ; -)

Muhammad Rasheed - NO! What does "closes door" mean in friggin' french???

Muhammad Rasheed - THROW THAT STUPID LANGUAGE AWAY!  It's ruining the flow of the thread!

Muhammad Rasheed - closes door (french) archaic; to drop the blade on a guillotine; the act of the blade dropping

Paul Rhoads - ...taking head?

...a muslim miracle??

maybe Islam a true relgion after all and not some barbaric copy'cat pastiche hulking out of the dark ages it helped create to give us a pain in the neck????

Paul Rhoads - Muhammed was a fraud, a pedophile, a jew hater and a murderer. (Compare Jesus).

Donovan S. Brain - Oh, come on. That's pretty much hate speech. If you can't do better than that, give up.

John Justin Green - It reflects what is known of him though. The color of language is what makes it hate? I wish we would allow people to declare what they hate without others trying to do it for them.

Paul Rhoads - ug! what bores you are! l' m chasing poor Rasheed round his tree, calm down.

Muhammad Rasheed - John Justin Green wrote: "It reflects what is known of him though."

This is also not so. I will address all of these points upon my return.

Paul Rhoads - no need. Any standard history lays out these banalites which have never ' until today ' been either secret or contrevesial.

Muhammad Rasheed - Just because you believe them in your firm stance of over-the-top and unfair prejudice, does not automatically elevate them to the realm of historical fact.

Your research levels are slipshod, embarrassingly shallow, and clearly come up short at the edge of "only Europe and her friends have worth" type of narrative as favored by your idol Churchill. You may safely discard this mindset as a treacherous nonessential to truth and reason.

Muhammad Rasheed - smh

If Islam is a "copy cat pastiche" of Christianity, then Christianity is certainly the same for Judaism. The argument lacks sense on even the basic level. Each prophet confirmed and fulfilled the message that came before it. Muhammad and the Qur'an were no different.

Paul Rhoads - ??? empty sophomoric talk. If you believe this you are a know-nothing.

Mohammed, l say, was a fraud: he claims to have talked to angels. l claim he lied about that.

He "married" a 9 year old. What is this if not pedophilia?? He killed people ([singy voice] defeding himself from mean attacks), does any one deny it?

Jesus turned the other cheek: whatever you think about that it at least is a stark contrast.

These behaviors of the prophet color his religion to this day.

Objections? l've said somrsomething illegitimate?

Muhammad Rasheed - Muhammad was none of those things. Is tired ole slander the final part of your argument then?

Paul Rhoads - .... where is our brave leftist, defender of all things muslim and identity politics?

Donovan S. Brain - I tend to agree with the Baha'is; any path you take that leads you closer to God is a true one. If you can become a better person by following it sincerely, it's a positive force.

Paul Rhoads - very likely.But when it leads you to behave like Racheed here, or all these jehadists, l think wr can agree i's something else, no?

Muhammad Rasheed - ENGLISH!!!

Donovan S. Brain - Actually he seems to be exemplifying the Christian virtue of turning the other cheek and using a gentle answer to turn away wrath a lot better than you are. You need to work on the bearing false witness stuff a bit, too. Try keeping your sense of humor intact.

Paul Rhoads - ah! a fine lesson! thank you wise teacher.

..."Rasheed the chistian"... sone you will have me sympathising with use of the term "cuck".

Bravo Rasheed, you've won a convert (to the religion of peace).

Muhammad Rasheed - *nods*  You have another 20+ minutes to snap to as well so you can manage to avoid this sword stroke for your insolence.

Paul Rhoads - ... l feel like l'm poking at a corps with my foot...

Muhammad Rasheed - In the Qur'an, God said that as long as you believe in Him, do good and reject evil, He will reward you on the Last Day. You are not required to subscribe to religion necessarily.

Paul Rhoads - Do "good" by killing "pig-ape" jews and other infidels, and be rewarded with 70 (underage) virgins - you meant to say.

Muhammad Rasheed - All of these are fictions invented either by silly Muslims, or my ideological enemies.

We'll stick to what God and His prophet said/commanded/did, which you'll find lines up with the examples of the previous prophets as well. Including your own in some cases.

Muhammad Rasheed - Try poking at your phone with your foot and get it to respond inside of 4 hours...

Paul Rhoads - "pray" and "eat"!

more like worry and bite knuckles.

Muhammad Rasheed - Ha! You've already spent the full force of your sterile load. Do you think this is my first argument of comparative religion? Your final day is nigh!

Paul Rhoads - My friend, l admire your good humor and your resilience.

This manner of engagement has taken us as far as it can.

The result is not for us to announce but for our discerning observers.

Next conversation, if any, should poproceed on other lines.

Muhammad Rasheed - With 3 feet of steel keeping your guts company, I'm confident you'll be able to tell all by yourself who won the battle in the end, with both accuracy and precision. Fear not!

John Justin Green - One important point. If we had a world caliphate Vance would Vance be permitted. Could Vance have even become who he did? Muhammed is terribly corrupted by the west and his is a tortured soul. I say let him pray. But if he tries anything sneaky...

Paul Rhoads - you alreay lopped the head.

Muhammad Rasheed - No!

Muhammad Rasheed - Paul wrote: “...first of all, what is a non Euro-ethnic (your term) doing on our aire and speaking our tougne?”

I am a descendant of the early victims of the Euro-ethnic’s war against the non-white; they were captured, shackled, broken, and forced to serve as chattel on pain of mutilation or death. When I woke up in the modern era, I found myself in the land my ancestors were brought to and sold on the slave blocks. I am more or less assimilated into the society of the descendants of their captors where I learned to develop an appetite for the air, and took on an American dialect of English as my native tongue.

Paul wrote: “l accuse you of being a warrior in the army of the 'prophet,' a soldier in the anti-occidental, anti-christian leftist-islamic alliance. How do you plead? Will you fly your true colors or must l strike you down as an infiltrator?”

My allegiances are ranked in order from most loyal at the top. I am a proud:

1.) Muslim
2.) Black American
3.) Cartoonist-Publisher-Graphic Novel Serialist
4.) Political Moderate with libertarian leanings

I consider the unrepentant signatory of the White Supremacist Ideology Racial Contract stain upon society to be my active enemy.

Muhammad Rasheed - Paul wrote: “ug: heard it all before!”

lol Have you? Your dismissive over-confidence will be your undoing.

Paul wrote: “Rasheed: do the world a favor; become an imam and proclaim the TRUE lslam. Call it Neo lslam.”

I bear witness that there is no god but the One God of Abraham, and Muhammad was His prophet-messenger and slave servant. Al-Islam is the religion God has perfected and gifted to mankind. There is no other Islam.

Paul wrote: “Throw out the Koran (don't try to fool me, l've read enough of it to get the gist)”

You admit to me freely that you have no knowledge of the Qur’an outside of the standard list of cherry-picked quotes currently circulated among the anti-Islam propaganda sites? I consider that brave to the point of willful ignorance.

Paul wrote: “Until then standard history prevails and your anti-colonial angst, anti-western animus and identity-politcs shame tactics will continue to leave me master of the field.”

The “standard history” narrative of Western Society, as preferred by the White Supremacist Racial Contract signatory, mean no more to me than a superfluous tail on some inbred hick infant in a rural cabin. What you uphold is not what I uphold, and I have zero reason to respect it. To prove yourself master of the battle field, you’ll have to first produce something more weighty than your shallow and offensive proclamations of superiority, which only have the retconned worst atrocities upon humanity as their point of reference.

Muhammad Rasheed - John wrote: “1.) Well I do not agree with a thing you posted about Islam. And there is not any point in you trying to continue. […] 2.) Bravo. But with so much to work with it becomes impossible for an ignorant listener to know spin from good reason, or to know any false bits that turn arguments about. […] 3.) I think that the people who accuse others of racism are projecting because they don't really understand what is behind the other person's argument and they reach into themselves and find a familiar dominant mentation which is their own racism and I'm more comfortable projecting this on to other people then admitting it is their own”

The only reasonable conclusion one can take away from the thread running through these three points of yours, John, is that you do not know about the topic, are firmly against hearing anything about it that could potentially soften your unreasonable stance against it based solely upon third party bias you’ve assimilated as your own, and yet you express that the very prejudice that inevitably emerges from this closed-minded mindset somehow originates as a projection from ME.

It would appear from all of this that any levels of intellectual force you came here with were depleted down to dangerously low levels once you managed to attain your nursing education, thus depriving you of the potential for learning about any other fields of study. A pity. I take back my na├»vely optimistic “break out star” comment with regret.

John wrote: “One important point. If we had a world caliphate Vance would Vance be permitted.”

It depends upon the era and what school of thought would rule.  If it was a fake ISIL version of the caliphate in name only?  Probably not since they are only unIslamic savages working as wage slave mercenaries for the Muslim World’s enemies.  Destroying anything good to provoke Western powers into waging a full-blown WW3 upon that region is their ideal primary goal.  “Art” would be seen as an easy target to them.

John wrote: “Could Vance have even become who he did?”

If it was a caliphate under Harun Ar-Rashid, or during the golden age of Muslim rule over Spain, then the answer would be “Yes.”  Until a real Muslim leadership emerges arrives, that has true uncompromising reverence for the Word of God to rule by, as opposed to the backwards Arab tribal traditionalism of “Sharia” that is only pretending to do so, then I agree that the very concept of the caliphate must remain dormant.  No one currently on the world stage – as the Muslim World is tossed helplessly to-and-fro by her enemies – is worthy of the title.

John wrote: “I think the goal is to become civil men. […] So ti me this is all about becoming respectful of these lines we are not to cross. Argument is respectful. […] But Paul wasn't calling you or our other friends names he was calling Muhammad the prophet some names.”

So you consider slandering the founder of my sacred belief system to be “respectful?”  Truly it seems as if we live on two separate planets!  I do not consider myself an over-sensitive soul, but your remarks do carry a sting.

John wrote: “Muhammed is terribly corrupted by the west and his is a tortured soul. I say let him pray. But if he tries anything sneaky...”

I don’t necessarily FEEL corrupted, but I’m sure some taint from the White Supremacist Ideology that makes up the foundational bedrock of Western society must tint the lenses I see the world through to some degree.  It would be impossible to keep that evil indoctrination out 100%.

John Justin Green - You are hopeless

Muhammad Rasheed - What incentive do you offer to convert to your way of thinking? How will it benefit me?

Tell me.

John Justin Green - Yes we have incompatable souls. Best stay away from each other

Alan Brodie - Gentlemen, this business has gone on long enough. Too long, in fact. While I'm sure you're all enjoying yourselves immensely, a vanishingly small fraction of the thread has anything to do with Jack Vance. Moreover, while the tone has been mostly jocular, it has sometimes veered perilously close to bigotry. So, you can take your entrenched opinions and argue them interminably elsewhere, if you feel you must. This, however, is not the place.

It ends now. Otherwise, I delete the whole thread. I might do so anyway.

Alan Brodie - Gentlemen. Enough. Take it elsewhere.

Muhammad Rasheed - Very well, Alan. They can meet me at this link below if they would like to continue the discussion.

Alan Brodie - Fair enough. I must say, I can't see any good coming of it, but the choice is yours. I am sorely tempted to delete this whole thread on the grounds of 99.9% irrelevance to the work of Jack Vance, but I will sleep on it and decide later. For now, goodnight.

Muhammad Rasheed - For what it's worth, I consider you a good man for treating us all like adults and allowing the thread to stay. Good form!

The subject matter is intense, but I think we stayed civil, and only pretended to be hostile in a pretty decent imitation of the 21st Aeon magician bickering.

To me.

Paul Rhoads - As l said earlier: nuncupatory.

Till Noever - All I can say is "fascinating". Religion as per usual featuring as the inexhaustible wellspring of totally pointless and, yes, nuncupatory discourse...

Paul Rhoads - totally pointless? religion? my dear Till, look again!

Muhammad Rasheed - Aye! As a dedicated religionist (of a more serious and pious bent than the rogue Rhoads) I also take offense at this claim! Look again, again, and there look once again!

 See Also:

WARNING! This Discussion Forum is Guarded by the Thought Police! NO DISCUSSIONS ALLOWED!

The Spirit of Trullion: A Religious Dialogue within the Alastor Cluster

THE FRAY: Crossed Blades Underneath a Twinkling Gaean Reach Canopy

Son of the FRAY: Shedding the Big Two

Knighted British Aristocrat Goes on Crackpot Anti-Islamic Rant

A Tribute to Jack Vance (August 28, 1916 – May 26, 2013)


  1. Well now I have been tossed from the By No Means Facebook group into the sea after your last provocative effort got me angry with you. You are ruining your own playground there but maybe that is what you want. It is being run like a public library. The admin is a book store employee. You are a subtle and effective troll Sir. Congratulations on that.

  2. I TOLD you to bring your argument over HERE where you could spew your venom as you liked! The Mod already gave his Smade's Tavern warning to us all, and even pitched that other reckless fool into the sea for his pains! I refuse to accept responsibility for your lack of control. Here... sip some warm mead and get your head together.

    Pick one of these threads and simply respond to the arguments here in the comments, or start a whole new argument as it pleases you. And stay out of trouble!