Saturday, June 6, 2015

Tainting the Gift

Steve DelRay[shared meme]

Steve DelRay – What say ye?

Nancy Jean Striggs - They used Christianity to force our ancestors into submission and to give themselves a false sense of authority. Africans knew that this was a lie. God is not the author of confusion and deceit. This truth is how they survived.

Muhammad Rasheed - The oldest Christian church in the world is in Ethiopia. Christianity has been on the African continent for 2,000 years, and many of the slaves who were brought over probably already were Christian. 

I'm going to assume the "enlightened bruthas" that keep passing along this message watched too damn much Tarzan growing up, instead of researching history.

Steven GO Dubbs - Black people gave Christianity to the world. Jesus was not white nor were the apostles.

Nancy Jean Striggs - Yet, they still tried to use it against us.

Jay Mac - One of Jesus' 12 was African.

Steve DelRay - I ain't "enlightened;" I'm asking questions that I have about God.

Nancy Jean Striggs - I should say European version of Christianity was used to control slaves.

Muhammad Rasheed - Nothing personal, Steve. I've just been seeing this message my whole life, and it's starting to get a little played out.

Muhammad Rasheed - The enemy cherry-picked out of the bible what he wanted you to preach to each other, and told you what the interpretation was to be. He didn't want you to read it for yourself. Reading it for yourself as an enlightened independent scholar is liberating, not enslaving. 

But first, the former slave must empty his cup of that ol' bullshit.

Reginald Bailey - When people posts memes like this and actually believe they are true, it really causes me to wonder about their research ability. A simple Google search will clearly reveal that Christianity was practiced on the continent of Africa long before the American slave trade. i find it disturbing that people are so quick to believe a meme is true without conducting simple research. 

The source for this article is the BBC, so please spare me the "it's biased towards Christianity" nonsense. Thank you 

Paul Daniel - I grew up with a lot of Rastafarians and a couple of my high school, uh, let's say acquaintances were Five Percenters (probably still are, that kind of thing works well in the New York prison system). But the Rastas I know believe that their religion is the original religion of the black man. (And one of them gives me a daily update every day via Facebook to let me and others know that we've been fooled by the white European)

Muhammad Rasheed - "The Rastafari movement is an Abrahamic religion which developed in Jamaica in the 1930s, following the coronation of Haile Selassie I as Emperor of Ethiopia in 1930. Its adherents worship Haile Selassie I, emperor of Ethiopia (ruled 1930–1974), much in the same way as Jesus in his Second Advent, or as God the Father."

Muhammad Rasheed - "Haile Selassie I (23 July 1892 – 27 August 1975), born Tafari Makonnen Woldemikael was Ethiopia's regent from 1916 to 1930 and Emperor of Ethiopia from 1930 to 1974. He was a member of the Solomonic dynasty. Among the Rastafari movement, whose followers are estimated at between 2,000,000 and 4,000,000, Haile Selassie is revered as the returned messiah of the Bible, God incarnate. Beginning in Jamaica in the 1930s, the Rastafari movement perceives Haile Selassie as a messianic figure who will lead a future golden age of eternal peace, righteousness, and prosperity. Haile Selassie was an Ethiopian Orthodox Christian throughout his life."

Dolamar Maxie - The meme is accurate. Africa is a vast continent so vast any map or globe. Most of you all have seen is inaccurate. With that being said christian did not make it west Africa. Where most slaves come from. Had voodoo and other African spiritual s

Muhammad Rasheed - "The House of Solomon is the former ruling Imperial House of the Ethiopian Empire. Its members claim patrilineal descent from Solomon of Israel and the Queen of Sheba. Tradition asserts that the Queen gave birth to Menelik I after her biblically described visit to Solomon in Jerusalem. The dynasty, a bastion of Judaism and later of Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity, is considered to have ruled Ethiopia in the 10th century BC."

Dolamar Maxie - Christianity in West Africa has a shorter history than Islam. It did not come to that region of Africa until the era of European exploration and colonialism, apart from a few Christians who lived earlier on in the Sahara desert. This period of the spread of Christianity in West Africa began in the 15th century and continued into the 20th century.

Nancy Jean Striggs - You all are so scholarly.

Muhammad Rasheed - Dolamar Maxie wrote: "With that being said christian did not make it west Africa."

Islam made its way to West Africa by the time of the American Slave Trade, so what rational argument can you provide to support the idea that the 500 years older Christianity wouldn't have also made it there?

Dolamar Maxie - Islam began penetrating into West Africa somewhere around the 9th and 10th century CE through missionary efforts and trade networks

Dolamar Maxie - West Africa, like most all regions of the world, is a place where many different religions are practiced. These range from well-known world religions like Islam and Christianity to religious traditions that few people outside of a particular West African region have heard of. In general, certain areas of West Africa have tended not to adopt Christianity and Islam, maintaining many of the religious beliefs and practices of their ancestors

Dolamar Maxie - What religion do blacks practice in Haiti Muhammad Rasheed?

Muhammad Rasheed - Dolamar Maxie wrote: "Islam began penetrating into West Africa somewhere around the 9th and 10th century CE through missionary efforts and trade networks"

What would prevent this from working the exact same way for the 500 years older Christianity?

Muhammad Rasheed - Dolamar Maxie wrote: "What religion do blacks practice in Haiti Muhammad Rasheed?"

Muhammad Rasheed – “Minority religions in Haiti include Islam, Bahá'í Faith, Judaism, and Buddhism.”

Dolamar Maxie - All you have to do is look at the traditional religions practiced today in west Africa and look at the religions practiced in Haiti . What country beat the white man(kind of) ?

Reginald Bailey - Muhammad appears to be presenting facts and Dolamar is presenting opinion. Just my observation; carry on.

Muhammad Rasheed - @ Dolamar… "All I have to do" as opposed to what and for what reason? I would prefer if you would just answer a direct question and then support your claims. That would be awesome.

Dolamar Maxie - Vodou originated in the Caribbean and developed in the French Empire in the 18th century among West African slaves when African religious practice was actively suppressed, and enslaved Africans were forced to convert to Christianity.[14][15] Religious practices of contemporary Vodou are descended from, and closely related to, West African Vodun as practiced by the Fon and Ewe. Vodou also incorporates elements and symbolism from other African peoples including the Yoruba and Kongo; as well as Taíno religious beliefs, Roman Catholicism, and European spirituality including mysticism, Freemasonry, and other influences.[16]

Reginald Bailey - The meme IS NOT accurate because Christianity wasn’t given to black people this way. That blanket and inaccurate statement is asinine.

Dolamar Maxie - Ok

Dolamar Maxie - Blacks in america

Dolamar Maxie - The majority of the Africans who were brought as slaves were from Western and Central Africa. The survival of the belief systems in the New World is remarkable, although the traditions have changed with time and have even taken on some Catholic forms of worship.[39] Two important factors, however, characterize the uniqueness of Haitian Vodou as compared to African Vodun; the transplanted Africans of Haiti, similar to those of Cuba and Brazil, were obliged to disguise their loa or spirits as Roman Catholic saints, an element of a process called syncretism.

Muhammad Rasheed - The original version of "vodou" was practiced in West Africa, but it wasn't a dominant feature of the region's tribal cultures by any means; only some of the pagan tribes there practiced it. The dominant religion by far at the time the American Slave Trade began was Al-Islam. I came across a line, echoing your own, Dolamar, claiming that Christianity wasn't introduced into West Africa until as late as the 19th century, but I have yet to see any rational justification for this idea. It doesn't make any sense. If Islam can get there, why couldn't Christianity?

There's a mystery afoot...

Muhammad Rasheed - The rational explanation would be that the Muslim missionaries specifically targeted the highly receptive Christian tribes, with a near total conversion rate, thus giving the impression, over just a few generations, that Christianity had skipped over the area altogether.

Dolamar Maxie - 1812 first stone church built in west Africa

Dolamar Maxie - Much later than the Ethiopia one

Paul Daniel - For the black Christian, it can be hard to accept that, perhaps, the God you love was given to you by "the enemy." It forces you to accept an uncomfortable truth; that without that slave master, you probably wouldn't be Christian. I'm a black Christian believer, but I've moved on from this point. Sometimes bad things we can't explain happen for our benefit.

Muhammad Rasheed - @ Dolamar… I have no doubt that the Ethiopian church would be older in any event, but I highly doubt that the West African very first Christian house of worship was built in 1812. More than likely that was only according to the European colonialist records once they arrived and began tracking it. The mosques in the region very well may have originally been churches.

Jay Mac - Simon, the Canaanite (also referred to as the "Zealout"?) was the 12th disciple of Jesus. 

Simon traveled to Egypt to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 

Christianity is not a modern concept in Africa.

Dolamar Maxie -

Dolamar Maxie - Egypt doesn't count that's where lot of the bible ideas come from

Muhammad Rasheed - @ Jay Mac… Considering Egypt's importance as a major trade center and cultural seat, it is frankly impossible to believe that traders from West Africa wouldn't have brought Christianity back in 1500 years. The idea is ridiculous. The Christian community merely converted to Islam, that's why their numbers were so low.

Muhammad Rasheed - Dolamar Maxie wrote: "Egypt doesn't count..."

Are you a white supremacist spy?

Muhammad Rasheed - That's their favorite line.

Dolamar Maxie - Missed the part where I said that's where a lot of Bible ideas come from. I'm black and have real live Haitian roots. But Egypt was mixed racially whether you believe it or not

Nancy Jean Striggs - Look where Egypt is located. Do you all believe in an organisms ability to adapt to its environment?

Muhammad Rasheed - @ Dolamar…The point was that Egypt was a MAJOR cultural seat and trade spot, and people traveled there frequently for business and learning. Why WOULDN'T the West African merchants and scholars had done the same to bring Christianity back with them, too? 

The idea that they hadn't even heard of it until the white man showed up is the precise eurocentric thinking I would expect from him and his indoctrinated dupes.

Muhammad Rasheed - Not to mention the usual proselytizing zeal of the Abrahamic religious converts. Of course Christianity had made its way to West Africa early in its history. There is no rational explanation as for why it wouldn't have.

Muhammad Rasheed - But I am open to hearing one from you if you'd care to provide it.

Muhammad Rasheed - Dolamar Maxie wrote: "...whether you believe it or not"

Whether I do or not depends on the force & scope of the facts, reason and logic my opponent uses to support his claims. It'll certainly take more than a shallow passionate opinion.  

Muhammad Rasheed - Since you brought it up, I do recognize that Egypt was racially diverse during the time of the founding of Christianity. As important a hub of culture, trade, and learning as Egypt was, for as long as it was, it would be odd if all kinds of ethic groups and nationalities HADN’T wanted to move there over the ages. 

The actual important concept about the place is that the Golden Age of Ancient Egypt -- when their greatest wonders were created, at the height of when they impressed the whole world in stunned awe and wonder – was a fully Black African Egypt. It didn’t become racially diverse until well after it had become a shadow of its former majesty. No doubt the two events are related.

Steve DelRay - I guess I should have put "How Christianity was indoctrinated to the enslaved African in America."

Muhammad Rasheed - "How the white slave master twisted the message of God to fit his own agenda."

Muhammad Rasheed - "Part one."

Dolamar Maxie - Muhammad Rasheed you have only said there is not a reason why. Or if Islam did it why Christians didn't .

Muhammad Rasheed - DO you have a reason?


Muhammad Rasheed - So far you seem more than happy to accept the European Colonialist account of events. I am unimpressed by that.

Dolamar Maxie - I haven't seen any evidence that they did. Show me the Carfax on it

Steve DelRay - I was trying to be witty, and brevity is the soul of wit.

Dolamar Maxie - I don't have all the answers just most of them.

Jay Mac - LOL!

Muhammad, Dolamar doesn't stop. He can keep this going for about 12 days. You should see our other group (Religious & Creation topics)...

Dolamar Maxie - Muhammad Rasheed why are white people hiding Christianity in west Africa but not other parts of Africa and why do they not hide Islam???

Dolamar Maxie - Lmao Jay Mac is right on that one. You all are making me have a very unproductive day at work

Muhammad Rasheed - To me, the evidence that they did is the demonstrated fact that Islam did. Christian numbers were low in the area because the Muslims converted them. Is that difficult to believe? Remember in those days, the early Christians were expecting a new prophet to "comfort" them. The European theologians didn't retcon the interpretations to say "holy spirit" until AFTER their epic debates with the Muslim scholars.

Muhammad Rasheed - Dolamar Maxie wrote: "Muhammad Rasheed why are white people hiding Christianity in west Africa but not other parts of Africa and why do they not hide Islam???"

This is supposed to make sense? Who said anything about them hiding it? The question was, why were the numbers of Christians so low in West Africa before the European Colonialists showed up, even though Islam was flourishing in the area? The most logical explanation was that the early West African Christians simply converted to Islam.

The LEAST logical explanation was that Christianity had never arrived in West Africa until the White Man bestowed it upon them from a flying white horse from heaven, or whatever they said.

Muhammad Rasheed - Jay Mac wrote: "LOL! Muhammad, Dolamar doesn't stop."

I don't mind if he doesn't stop, just as long as he contributes something worthwhile to make the effort worth it.

Muhammad Rasheed - So far I've learned something interesting about Christianity in West Africa, but I had to puzzle it out on my own. Notice he's not even trying to solve the questions that the discussion creates. That's inherently problematic to me.

Twelve days of WHAT exactly? Lol

Dolamar Maxie – “So far you seem more than happy to accept the European Colonialist account of events. I am unimpressed by that.” -Muhammad Rasheed 

so how does me asking why are white people hiding it don't make sense? When you said I am believing white people

Dolamar Maxie - Then you just make up an account saying they converted to Muslim with 0 evidence to back that claim. But you want facts

Muhammad Rasheed - I want facts, or lacking that, I want a reasonable & logical argument as to how you arrived at your opinion. Can you provide such?

Muhammad Rasheed - I took the time to explain how I arrived at the conversion theory. I am patiently waiting for a logical challenge to pick it apart. Are you skilled enough at discourse to do so?

Muhammad Rasheed - Dolamar Maxie wrote: " how does me asking why are white people hiding"

Why ARE you saying that? Why would they be hiding it when you just admitted that they boast about being the first to bring it to West Africa? For what reason would they try to hide it? That's the part that's not making sense.

Dolamar Maxie - Oh really questioning my intelligence? Care to compare standardized test scores? Act ? Sat? IQ?

Muhammad Rasheed - I will be more than satisfied with you simply doing your part to add to the discussion. Your intelligence level will reveal itself then. So far I find you wanting. Get your game up.

Muhammad Rasheed - A point drops every time you duck a question btw.

Dolamar Maxie - If you don't agree keep it at that. Cause you will lose the intelligence battle post them Act,sat,Iq

Muhammad Rasheed - Dolamar Maxie wrote: "Why would Christians converting to Islam be more logical than Africans converted to Islam from traditional African religions???"

Is this supposed to be a real question? Because they had 1,500 years to find out about Christianity, that's why. If they can find out about Islam in less than 200 years, they can certainly find out about Christianity in over a millennium. Are you even trying?

Dolamar Maxie - Happy now

Muhammad Rasheed - Dolamar, nothing you've demonstrated in this thread causes me to respect your intellect. Posting scores of any kind will not impress me. Intelligence is a practical application of cognitive ability, not a test score.

Dolamar Maxie - Happy now

Dolamar Maxie - Right on . Facebook smart . let me know when you are hiring

Muhammad Rasheed - "Happy now" with what? Your copy/paste powers? When you regurgitated the myth of Islam being spread by force? Is that the extent of your mental powers?

Bye, Felisha.

Dolamar Maxie - You evidence is it was around longer. Any statues of Horus in west Africa? I mean it was around before Christianity what about enil and enki

Muhammad Rasheed - Dolamar Maxie quoted: "Because Islam advanced by force, it met with hostility and resistance in Europe, where Christianity was already strong. But in other areas, such as Egypt and Syria, it was accepted readily by people who had been living under suppressive rule"

None of this is true. Islam spread because the people were receptive to the message. Some monarchs took offense at the new prophet's mission, and were threatened by the united Arab tribes, and attacked, but that wasn't the norm by any means. The ruler of Egypt sent the Arab prophet gifts as tribute and bid him send his missionaries with Peace. To western Europe, the fast spreading of Islam reminded them of the old reports of the golden horde of Genghis, so they assumed it was the same, but it was not.

Dolamar Maxie - Says the guy that copied and pasted some Rastafarian, Ethiopian ect right on

Dolamar Maxie - No copy and paste

Muhammad Rasheed - Do you really think the early Muslim converts would've allowed statues of pagan deities in their area? Hm?

Muhammad Rasheed - I copy/pasted the Rastifari info for my own quick reference, as well as for anyone else reading who wanted a quick refresher. I wasn't posting it to convince you of anything. Primarily I wanted to know why they were worshiping a human, which made their entire message lose a great deal of credibility.

Dolamar Maxie - They still have anunnaki statues in Iraq Iran ect. Hell isis just fucked some up. So yea

Muhammad Rasheed - Dolamar Maxie wrote: "The original concept of jihad did not include agressive warfare against non-Muslims, but 'holy war' was sometimes waged by Muslims whose interpretation of the Koran allowed them such latitude. Jihad was directly responsible for some of the early conquests of Islam outside of the Arabian peninsula."

These two sentences are contradictory, and serve as anti-Islam propaganda. And why are there so many misspellings?

Muhammad Rasheed - lol Were they still worshiping them, or were they in UNESCO recognized cultural museums?

Muhammad Rasheed - Anytime you feel like putting together a cohesive argument and actually start making a point. Anytime. 

Or does copy/pasting represent the full extent of your test score skill?

Dolamar Maxie - Run it by me again. Nigga working. Pardon me for not using my full magnitude of my Facebook intelligence while I'm working. Its hot outchea

Muhammad Rasheed - lol Run what by you again? Are you taking part in this discussion or not? What is your point exactly? hahaha

Dolamar Maxie - School me on it. Everything I want to have knowledge like you Muhammad Rasheed. so tell me about Christianity in west Africa

Muhammad Rasheed - So you want me to create, package, and present your arguments for you because you find yourself stumped?

Is this a trait that high test scores track?

Dolamar Maxie - No, aren't you suppose to enlighten or is that what Christian s do, look down on people that ask for help? What would Jesus do?

Muhammad Rasheed - Is this a demonstration of your high test score level intellect? Question ducking, wanting other people to develop your arguments for you, and assuming the guy with the traditional Muslim name is a Christian?

Muhammad Rasheed - Wow.

Dolamar Maxie - Not my argument your argument. Lay it out. Or is that too difficult

Muhammad Rasheed - This entire thread is basically my laid out argument at this point. Simply scroll up and read it, assuming your high test scores track your ability to at least do that much...?

Muhammad Rasheed - It is YOUR laid out argument that is conspicuously missing, chief.

Muhammad Rasheed - If you will recall, I explained my logic thread as to how I came to the conclusion that the early West African Christians converted to Islam. You made a weak effort to refute it, but abandoned the topic to brag about your test scores when I countered.

Muhammad Rasheed - And then you copy/pasted from Radhey Shyam Chaurasia's book without ever trying to use the data to develop an argument for it to support. It still sits up there like a brick, lonely and abandoned.

Is this supposed to be your idea of scholarship then? A pity.

Dolamar Maxie - Copy and paste your posts together for me. It is too much for me to scroll up. Thanks in advance

Muhammad Rasheed - I find it too much to do your work for you. Obviously this means we're done. Have a good day.


Dolamar Maxie -  Thanks.

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