Jerry Lee Brice – Pelosi Stands Down On TAA, Clearing Way For Obama's Trade Agenda
Jerry Lee Brice – WTF??? Why is the president supporting this Trans Pacific partnership deal?Didn't we all learn anything from the NAFTA agreement, which has diminished the lives of American workers in America?...Where is Ross Perot when we really need him..(seriously, where is Ross Perot?)I had to stop supporting all things Clinton (which was hard for a democrat,but this about business)because he pushed through the dropping of the Financial Interest and Syndication rules because it is why the animation industry as far as those of us that worked in the industry under these rules, to go to pot, simply because of a back room politically motivated quid pro quo deal that president made that essentially twisted the knife in the backs of those in the TV and film business that supported him..or more directly, everybody that is not considered "above the line" talent and staff, which generally are the people that only benefit from such backstabbing political largess...wake up people!..they are coming after our pockets, once again!...and I don't care what political party or agenda you support, this will transform America into a third world nation.
Muhammad Rasheed - I think the difference, Jerry, is that NAFTA was George H. W. Bush's baby, so of course it sliced America's throat, sending all of our manufacturing jobs down to Mexico to help their economy at the expense of ours. Bush was actually also trying to fast track it through before the end of his term, but failed, so he managed to convince Clinton to put it through for him. It’s impossible to know for sure, but I think that the newly-elected Clinton was scammed/tricked into doing it, and spent his remaining political career in regret, and feeling like a fool.
The Trans Pacific Partnership is Obama's baby, and I believe it is an attempt by him to actually create a counter-measure to the harm that NAFTA did to the middle class. I think it will ultimately help bring technology back to the American worker, and will grow our middle class strong once again. And unlike an Executive Order, it will be permanent, and new presidents won't be able to repeal it. I think this will be President Obama's ultimate legacy before he leaves, and why he was so passionate about it. I don't know for sure, of course, but this is my gut connecting the dots.
I predict it will mean prosperity is returning to America. Disposable income levels will once again rise dramatically, and where there is disposable income for the middle class, there will be big booms in business growth. The president was finally able to get everyone to see it (in addition to adding some compromise items to the package to make them happy, no doubt. Hopefully those won’t sting too much).
Jerry Lee Brice - I hope you are right, my reading of the tea leaves concerning this bill tells me the opposite...but I do hope you are right on this Muhammad...I just don't see it, possibly I am wrong?We shall see, but my business sense tells me to make moves to shore up my business to be able to thrive if all we get are the predictable negative outcomes and damage this can and may do.
Muhammad Rasheed - Well, Obama has proven a champion of the middle class from day one, that being his most consistent call to action. NAFTA was conspicuously the single biggest item that hurt the middle class in the last several administrations. I strongly feel that this is the president's biggest weapon to cinch in his legacy, and will definitively make him one of the greatest presidents to hold the office. Based on his track record thus far, as well as what these kind of international deals can actually do, I think this is 100% his attempt to fix the damage done from NAFTA as best he can.
Jerry Lee Brice - Folks like me in the animation TV and Film business have seen and heard such things before, to our demise...Clinton also was the one who dropped the Fin/Syn regulations because his rich Hollywood producer pals paid into his campaign so he would do them a favor and drop it...
had I been aware of that back room deal, and what it has done to our business and economy, i would have done everything in my power to campaign against him, that KILLED a large part of our business here, it was the WORST thing to happen to the TV and Movie business ever.The damage is still happening...so, I don't trust this at all-but I do respect you, and trust your opinion to be well thought out, so...lets hope you are right, and i am wrong.
Jeremy Toback - Muhammad, rhetorically the president talks a good game for the middle class, but actions say otherwise. Discrepancies in wealth have increased, while costs of living have increased. No prosecutions in the 19.2 billion dollar theft banks pulled via thefinancial crisis. Labor advocates universally condemn the TPP. I'm not saying O is worse than Bush or Clinton before him, but I am saying their policies are very similar in substance and effect.
Jerry Lee Brice - No matter how much i admire the president, this is about business, and it looks damaging to our business-unless i am missing something?It just smells foul to me.
Hate to be against the president, but if this is what he is pushing through, I have to push back from him.I hate this.
Muhammad Rasheed - Jeremy Toback wrote: “Muhammad, rhetorically the president talks a good game for the middle class, but actions say otherwise. Discrepancies in wealth have increased…”
I understand why you would feel that way, but trust me, the change that the president campaigned on was exactly what he’s been working on all this time, and make no mistake, the specific kind of changes we need to have a healthy middle class, and thus, a prosperous nation is a long-term game. We won’t see the true fruit of what he’s been putting in place until after he’s gone. What has he done thus far?
1.) The Common Core Initiative – It’s purpose is to get the children up to college-level mathematics, science, etc., skills by the time they graduate high school. The benefits should be obvious.
2.) The Student Aid and Fiscal Responsibility Act - He reformed the student loan processes getting the banks out of the way as notorious middle men to keep interest rates low. Both of these items combined make him the number one champion for education.
3.) The TechHire Initiative – “President Obama Announces Multi-Sector Effort and Call to Action to Give Americans Pathways to Well-Paying Technology Jobs; Makes Available $100 Million in Grants. The President and his Administration are focused on promoting middle class economics to ensure that all Americans can contribute to and benefit from our American resurgence. Part of that effort requires empowering every American with the education and training they need to earn higher wages. [Which includes] a new campaign to work with communities to get more Americans rapidly trained for well-paying technology jobs.” ~SOURCE
4.) The Trans Pacific Partnership – Although this is primarily theoretical from my point-of-view, it still represents the natural correlation to the president’s long-term plans as I see it, and clearly directly related to the above item #3. I predict at some point after the deal is finalized we may see a sudden surge in tech-savvy Asian immigrants flooding into the country. Naturally, as history lessons dictate, we can expect a lot of initial American bitchin’ about “These people are takin' over our 'Murica!” et cetera, but everything will work out once the competition with the 1-3 items listed catch up and we become tech-savvy ourselves. That’s when the true BOOM! will happen. That first wave of Asian immigrants very well might build new manufacturing plants here, under some kind of tax-cut benefit built into the TPP just for that purpose.
Unfortunately, whoever is the sitting POTUS at the time is who will get all the glory & credit, because the average citizen lacks any kind of insight into stuff like that.
Jeremy Toback wrote: “…while costs of living have increased.”
That doesn’t have anything to do with Obama; that’s just part of the inevitable symptoms of being on the fiat system under the Federal Reserve. Inflation absolutely will continue to rise, causing the cost of living to rise proportionately, and there is nothing that will be done about it by anyone. Even if by some miracle one of the Libertarian Paul’s get into the White House, they will absolutely be shot before they can demolish the Fed.
Jeremy Toback wrote: “No prosecutions in the 19.2 billion dollar theft banks pulled via thefinancial crisis.”
That’s another item that will never be fixed. The banks were deregulated, remember? That combined with the nature of the Federal Reserve Act itself means that everything those guys did was 100% legal. Kiss that money goodbye. It is quite unrealistic to think Obama could have done anything about that. #tooBigToFailIndeed
Jeremy Toback wrote: “Labor advocates universally condemn the TPP.”
That can mean any number of things.
Jeremy Toback wrote: “I'm not saying O is worse than Bush or Clinton before him, but I am saying their policies are very similar in substance and effect.”
I disagree based on the items set above, and more that I’ve been tracking. Obama genuinely cares about America, wants the country to prosper, and feels that strengthening the middle class is the way to do it. The economy has recovered from the Recession, but the ultimate growth that we all wish to see as Obama’s rhetorical vision, is not an overnight thing that can be put in place in a couple of terms. True change on the higher level requires time, and some growing pains, but it is coming. Our job is to both be patient, and make sure we are prepared for the amazing opportunities sure to arrive.
Jeremy Toback - Muhammad. All respect, but nothing you've said convinces me that in concrete terms O's policy is anything but a continuation of the 30+ year neo-liberal / neo-con program that has decimated the American middle class. I can hope you are right or that 'trust' is merited, but words aside, O's handling of the financial crisis alone tells me otherwise.
Larry F. Houston - I absolutely hate this TPA/TPP and have no faith it will help the middle class. I will actively support primaries against all these Wall Street Democrats who supported this.
Vianey G. Leal - NAFTA fucked over a lot of Mexicans too. What do you think drove them to cross the border even more?
Jerry Lee Brice - yep V i agree!Did nothing for them...
Muhammad Rasheed - @Jeremy Toback... I understand, but you all's committed stance, that basically amounts to “NAFTA was bad so TPP must be bad, too,” doesn't provide anything concrete to convince me to join this anti-Obama campaign, specifically because of the items I've outlined above.
Jeremy Toback wrote: “I can hope you are right or that 'trust' is merited, but words aside, O's handling of the financial crisis alone tells me otherwise.”
His handling of that was as limited as it would be for any other president in that position. What he did do was make sure the unemployment funds were still strong for those struggling through Recessionary lay-offs, and eventually the economy crept back up. But his long term strategy is what will ultimately help the American people ride those kind of Wall Street inflicted financial waves better, by giving us higher wages and more means to save by rekindling our technological lead in the global markets.
The Mexicans don't have the same system we do, so a boom in manufacturing may not have affected workers the same. But remember, even at the height of our manufacturing middle class booms, we still had struggling poor people though. More than likely, it is that class of Mexican that is running across the borders.
Jerry Lee Brice - Because we have heard the same BS before...i'm not going for the okey doke this time around..i will support the candidate that promises and campaigns to destroy this bill in any and every way possible, no matter what political party they happen to be in.
This will hurt us all...
Muhammad Rasheed - Eventually you're going to get tired of rooting for the opposite opponent that I'm rooting for. lol #teamMoney
Jay Mac - Interesting debate.
Nathan Hshs Odu Harris - How is TPP different from NAFTA?
Muhammad Rasheed - NAFTA was between Canada, the USA, and Mexico, while TPP involves the USA and a group of Pacific Asian countries. What the details of the latter turn out to be, we'll find out when it is done. That's the nature of the "fast track."
Nathan Hshs Odu Harris - I know the areas each are a part of. I just want to know how it will be different from NAFTA.
Muhammad Rasheed - We'll see. That part hasn't been released to the public yet.
Paul Daniel - It won't be different, Nate. Jobs will be shipped off to Asian countries where folks get paid cents per hour for manufacturing! And I can't wait!!!! FOUR MORE YEARS! FOUR KORE YEARS!! FOUR MORE YEARS!!! I hope these people see this is MY president who brought us the Trans-Pacific Partnership--oh, and Hillary, too; she DID work out the kinks as Secretary of State.
Paul Daniel - Nate, rememeber during the '92 Presidential Debates Ross Perot saying, "Do you hear that sound? It's American jobs heading to Mexico because of NAFTA"? (Or something like that) Well, replace "NAFTA" and "Mexico" with "TPP" and "Asia."
FOUR MORE YEARS! I think you guys were right about this Obama guy. I'm sorry it took me so long to catch on!!
Chris Ray - Ross Perot did try to tell us.
Nathan Hshs Odu Harris - Yeah. I remember. And that what I'm afraid of. I don't see why folk think there will be a difference. Bye bye middle class...
Paul Daniel - Well, Muhammad Rasheed is 100% correct in that we don't know what's inside yet. But from past history of these trade deals, yes, you can expect the American worker to get screwed. Also, and maybe Muhammad knows something mode about this, there was supposed to be a provision in this bill deal that would have extended financial help to workers who lose their jobs over this. it was NOT in the final bill voted on today. Now THAT is a huge spit in the face from Obama to the middle class worker who will lose a job. Did you hear about that part, Mr. Rasheed? I heard it this afternoon.
Muhammad Rasheed - Paul Daniel wrote: "Well, Muhammad Rasheed is 100% correct in that we don't know what's inside yet."
We'll call this "Chemical X."
Paul Daniel wrote: "But from past history of these trade deals, yes, you can expect the American worker to get screwed."
The president has to compromise, and give his opponents something in order for him to get something, the same for all the other acts and bills, etc. that he's signed. So you can count on some aspects of the thing stinging a bit, yes, that is realistic. But I think Obama's part of the deal will be very good for the middle class. Since this is Obama's baby, I can reasonably expect that.
Paul Daniel wrote: "Also, and maybe Muhammad knows something mode about this, there was supposed to be a provision in this bill deal that would have extended financial help to workers who lose their jobs over this. it was NOT in the final bill voted on today. Now THAT is a huge spit in the face from Obama to the middle class worker who will lose a job. Did you hear about that part, Mr. Rasheed? I heard it this afternoon."
Let me see the link to check it out.
Muhammad Rasheed - Nathan Hshs Odu Harris wrote: "Yeah. I remember. And that what I'm afraid of. I don't see why folk think there will be a difference. Bye bye middle class..."
Because George H. W. Bush didn't give a shit about the middle class, and Obama has been all about the middle class. The reasons I argued above make more sense to me than being super pessimistic just because a completely different person in the past, and the president's political rival, made an international agreement 30 years ago.
Muhammad Rasheed - Paul Daniel wrote: "It won't be different, Nate. Jobs will be shipped off to Asian countries where folks get paid cents per hour for manufacturing!"
Our manufacturing jobs are already overseas. lol If Obama did it too it would be out of character. I think the trend is about to reverse with these new Asian trade partners...
...it just occurred to me that you all may be this pessimistic about the TPP, not because of NAFTA, but because you've been brainwashed from watching The Phantom Menace too many times. Because of Bush's selfish shenanigans, the term "trade agreement" has entered popular culture as a villainous concept, and you seem to have an inability to see past the programming. Bush, Sr. and Obama are two different people, with two different agendas.
Paul Daniel - We'll have to revisit this some years down the road. My guess is Obama screwed the middle class, the very voters who put him in office, but I don't care. He's a politician, and by nature, some screwing is going to happen. I believe Ed Schultz on this one when he says Obama sod out his base. But see, I'm on the other side. So I'll sit back and watch the circular firing squad in action. It was Republicans who gave him this win, not Democrats. Must be a reason why. :)
Muhammad Rasheed - Obama never sold out his base; he showed up on that stage as a moderate, one with a history of working well with both sides of the aisle. The super-greed at the top of those partisan mountains are what sold HIM out.
My points outlining my position as to why I think the Trans Pacific Partnership will ultimately be good for the middle class still stands above. I patiently look forward to the official counter-argument that is tellingly taking it's time to arrive. ;)
Nathan Hshs Odu Harris - I like to think of my self as a student of history of sorts since I teach it. At this point the TPP looks like NAFTA which hasn't been good for workers.
Muhammad Rasheed - 1.) We don't know what's in it. Therefore what it "looks like" is just an international business deal template.
2.) The two trade agreements were comparing were each championed by presidents with completely different agendas and viewpoints as to what the country needs.
3.) The Obama Administration has put several items in place specifically to help the middle class prosper over the long-term.
4.) So far no criticism against the TPP lines up with any kind of reason or logic. “We don’t like the idea of this international business deal because a previous international business deal – put together by completely different people under a completely different ideology – was bad.”
Paul Daniel - I think you're a super Obama fan. But you're right: he ran as a moderate, but he had no choice; no way he gets elected as the uber leftist he is. But the best part of this is the fight is between the left and the left.
Muhammad Rasheed - He was a moderate throughout his entire political career, Paul.
Paul Daniel - Uh, yah...ok.
Muhammad Rasheed - lol
That's where my advantage of being a "super Obama fan" comes in at. I actually know his career, believe in his vision, and have been tracking his progress in attempting to accomplish the things he said he wanted to accomplish. So when people try to bluff me by saying off-the-cuff statements in the guise of some kind of truth, they tend to stand out.
Muhammad Rasheed -
Tcapr Washington - Yeah ok....
Muhammad Rasheed - lol
Rodney Jean-Etienne - Nope, TPP is a horrible deal.
Muhammad Rasheed - TPP fixed the problems with Bush's NAFTA (considered an "upgrade" to it), and added new, pro-American Middle Class items that were part of the Obama Admin agenda. Of course it necessarily has some compromise items that the other side of the aisle wanted, but over-all it will prove to be a good thing. It will reverse many of the negatives that affected the middle class under the reigns of Reagan & Bush.
Rodney Jean-Etienne - But allow for corporate tribunals to sue any municipality or country that passes a law that the corporation feels could affect future profits and can sue for those future profits, not loss mind you future profits, usually for billions. Things like anti-fracking laws, food safety laws, product labeling laws and anything the corporation may feel is a hindrance to making profit. Introduces a even more draconian version of SOPA and copyright laws that favor of corporations.
The treaty has over 20 chapters only 5 on trade. Most are about setting up corporate powers that benefit multinational corporations by either giving them protection against crimes or wrong doing and the ability to undo law through their tribunals which are overseen by their corporate lawyers. Everything President Obama has worked for can be undone by this treaty.
Also the people who were able to see it were not allow to write anything down or talk about anything concretely because the Treaty was negotiated in secret. The information we have is only because chapters were leaked.
This Treaty affect about 40% of the global economy . The follow up to it the TTIP which involves the European Union if add to a the TPP would affect 80% of the global economy. A few policy fixes is not worth giving corporate control to the world. Its a bad deal just look at what NAFTA did this will be 800 times worse if it passes.
The Electronic Frontier Foundation – TPP FAQ
What is TTIP? And six reasons why the answer should scare you
Muhammad Rasheed - 1.) It's impossible to pass anything without the two ideological rivals giving the other something. "You have to give in order to get" is the name of politics. There's nothing we can do about that part, other than do nothing and allow the unaltered NAFTA to ride. The President is adhering to his stated goals of improving the nation's economy by providing opportunities to grow the middle class. There will be some things that will suck along the way, but it will be better than it's been since our manufacturing sector was dismantled.
2.) The President said above that the previously classified documents would be available for perusal in full, by the American people, after it goes through Congress and before he signs it.
I am as confident that TPP will not be "800 times worse" as you are sure it will. But we'll see. My only annoyance is the certainty that some future asshole president will be given credit for the positive items this long-term, forward-thinking President is putting in place now.
See Also: Reagan versus Obama