Friday, August 5, 2016
Deep Space Exploration - Planet #1818: Kirby's World
Kirb Brimstone - Who Was Muhammad? The Christian and Muslim Perspectives | David Wood vs Ali Ataie
Thoughts Muhammad Rasheed?
Muhammad Rasheed - The description starts with a major error. All the prophets are the same, with the same mission. I am commanded by Allah NOT to treat any different from any other, so "God's greatest messenger" doesn't compute. Why should I click on this garbage after this demonstration of sloppiness?
Kirb Brimstone - Because you are open to knowledge. If it's incorrect so be it. But watch it before you judge it.
I don't plan to engage you on the topic because I'm convinced you are firmly rooted in your belief and not open to anything that contradicts it. I am however interested in better understanding your opinion on this particular debate. So there will be no back and forth between us on this.
Muhammad Rasheed - Then what's the point of watching it?
Are you implying that you aren't firmly rooted in your belief and not open to anything that contradicts it? lol
Kirb Brimstone - Yes.
Muhammad Rasheed - I know you don't respect Islam at all, and don't care, but the Pillars of Belief are major and VERY important. "BELIEF IN THE PROPHETS" is a big defining part of this religion. The concept of "God's greatest messenger" is actually extremely wrong and unIslamic, no matter who expresses it. If this vid is based upon that being a truism, then what "knowledge" is it supposed to express?
Muhammad Rasheed - Just reading that was actually offensive, Kirb, and actually of the quality of "knowledge" I'm used to outsiders expressing about my faith.
Muhammad Rasheed - Do you understand me?
Kirb Brimstone - Why don't you watch and find out?
Kirb Brimstone - No.
Muhammad Rasheed - I'm trying to explain to the nonMuslim that thus far, I literally see something that's offensive to me as a Muslim, that gives me no motivation TO watch it. Instead, tell me what specifically you saw in it that you want my opinion on.
Kirb Brimstone - I don't know that the Islamic speaker calls Mohammed "greatest" just because the person who posted the video says so in his description. With that said I would advise against avoiding opinions that offend you. Your goal should be truth not your protecting your feelings. I'm sorry you feel that way but I am not moved by someone saying "I'm offended" I read and interact with offensive opinions every day. I could understand if you said that it is false. I would take that into consideration.
Muhammad Rasheed - A person that I know doesn't respect Islam, just tagged me in a video. In the description of the video I see an ignorant, anti-Islam blasphemy. The person expressed that he doesn't want to have a discussion about it, he just wants me to download what comes across as anti-Islam propaganda in my head and that's it. lol
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote:"Your goal should be truth not your protecting your feelings. "
What truth do you believe this vid possesses about Islam that you feel I should hear?
Kirb Brimstone - Do you even read my comments or do you just wait for me to post so you can just post your pre-programmed response?
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Do you even read my comments or do you just post?"
You always give the impression that if I don't agree with you, then I never read what you said at all. I disagree with you because I read what you wrote.
Kirb Brimstone - Thank the Lord Jesus you can read what I type lol. Meanwhile you are already typing your response.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Why don't you watch and find out?"
lol I appreciate that you hold a high opinion of your own opinions, but we are rarely on the same page in general, and never on religion and politics. You don't have the power to simply post a link and make me want to click on it out of curiosity. You lost that power back on HeroTalk. You need to sell this stuff in order to motivate me to care enough to click it.
Kirb Brimstone - See that response has nothing to do with what I just wrote. Lol.
Muhammad Rasheed - I was responding to something you typed further up. If it happens to match another quick comment you posted later too, it's just that you are a one-trick pony. hahaha
Muhammad Rasheed - Okay, I'll copy/paste what I'm responding to then. Hold on.
Muhammad Rasheed - Done. Okay?
Muhammad Rasheed - You dislike Islam, and are intrigued by a vid that discusses Islam. What about those combined points should make me care to watch it considering I am a Muslim? Do you think I don't argue frequently with people who are hostile against Islam and are just as ignorant as that "God's greatest messenger" person above? It's not a big deal to you, but you aren't a Muslim, and in fact, don't like Islam at all.
Remember you demonstrated back in BSH that you lack the ability to see things from the other person's perspective.
Kirb Brimstone - You Don't have to watch the video Mo. I wanted your opinion on the actual content but you opted not to because you're offended by the description written by the person who posted the video. Who doesn't really have anything to do with the people in the actual debate. I don't want to control you if you want to see what Muslim thinks about about the topic/debate. It's an unusual Topic in that it's about Muhammad. I didn't expect you to agree with it the fact that I had no expectations but I thought you at least watch it.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "You Don't have to watch the video Mo."
I KNOW I don't have to watch the video, Kirb. I'm explaining to you why I'm not motivated to watch it, while giving helpful hints as to what you can do TO motivate me to watch it. But if you don't care whether I do or not, and aren't interested in my thoughts about it anyway, then this conversation never happened. Right? 'Cause no one cared. lol
Kirb Brimstone - "Remember you demonstrated back in BSH that you lack the ability to see things from the other person's perspective."
Lol I totally disagree with that statement and I find it hilarious that you say it is if it's something we both agree to.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote wrote: "...and I find it hilarious that you say it is if it's something we both agree to."
That's how I feel every time you type something like "then you don't really know me, Mo."
Kirb Brimstone - I do care about your opinions on the debate. What I am not interested in is your excuses to not watch the video. We can't talk about something you refuse to watch.
That's why I conceited
Muhammad Rasheed - I told you upfront that I see something that makes the whole vid look like complete bullshit. If the vid doesn't approach the topic from that offensive direction, how come you just couldn't say it doesn't so that I would respond, "Oh. Good. Then I'll watch it then. Because from there it looked like you were trying to trick me."
Muhammad Rasheed - YOU'RE the one that tagged ME in it.
Kirb Brimstone - Yes that's correct MO. You refused to watch a video I tagged you on and I'm now respecting that decision. So there's nothing more to talk about. Feel free to have the last word or words.
Kirb Brimstone - "That's how I feel every time you type something like "then you don't really know me, Mo.""
Really Mo? You are comparing your attributing to me the belief that I don't think immigrants are people as the son of immigrants to you assuming that we agree that I am not open minded?
Muhammad Rasheed - You always say stuff like that. It's weird. I don't remember where your family is from. HeroTalk was a million years ago.
Kirb Brimstone - Okay so I'm right when I say you don't know me. It's okay to be wrong
Muhammad Rasheed - It's a genuinely weird comment. Maybe it's a clash of cultures thing, since you turned out to be an immigrant.
Kirb Brimstone - Now you're just trolling me. immigrant: a person who migrates to another country, usually for permanent residence. I am not from "another country" I was born here.
Muhammad Rasheed - So you're not an immigrant after all? Then what are you talking about? MAKE UP YOUR MIND, KIRB! lol
Kirb Brimstone - ROFL. Find where I said I was an immigrant?
Muhammad Rasheed - Meh. lol I think it was pretty clear I didn't care the first time around.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Yes that's correct MO."
I'm going to interpret this as meaning that the whole vid really IS based on the "God's greatest messenger" claptrap, and I did save myself from wasting my time. You should've just admitted that upfront after my first comment. geez...
Muhammad Rasheed - I clicked on it to check to see how long it was, and it says it was a debate between a Christian and a Muslim at a university. Why didn't you just SAY that when I asked? I thought it was going to be an anti-Muhammad documentary or something. That's what I was trying to get you to confirm or not. You saw I didn't trust you. Geez! I just wanted you to tell me what it was. How hard was that?
I'll watch it, just not tonight.
Kirb Brimstone - Lol okay.
Muhammad Rasheed - This thread could've been just two posts deep, but noooo...
Muhammad Rasheed - Your fault.
Kirb Brimstone - Still you shouldn't avoid things solely on how it makes you feel. If I did that I couldn't talk to you. Half of the things you say offends me.
Muhammad Rasheed - I don't understand what "how it makes me feel" means. "God's greatest messenger" is specifically the kind of thing my enemy says. So since I KNOW you don't like Islam, and you've linked me in anti-Islam propaganda before, that was a reasonable logical leap to make. Not emotional.
Kirb Brimstone - I should warn you... the debate is about Mohammed. And the Christian will say things about him that might offend you. I don't know for sure. Don't get me wrong I don't think the Christian is being nasty but he warns that the Christian position regarding Mohammad may offend Muslims.
Kirb Brimstone - When have I linked you to anti-Islamic propaganda? Honestly? I have linked you to talks that challenge the truthfulness of the Islamic worldview. You can't call something propaganda simply because you disagree with the subject matter.
Kirb Brimstone - When you say "I am offended" you are making a statement about your feelings regarding a topic. So I say don't avoid something because of how it makes you feel.
Kirb Brimstone - offend: to cause (a person or group) to feel hurt, angry, or upset by something said or done.
Kirb Brimstone - So I am sorry I linked to something that made you feel hurt angry or upset it wasn't my intention... but sometimes the truth hurts, makes us angry, or upset.
Muhammad Rasheed - Well, I read the full description so now I get it. I've had these debates myself, so I have a good idea what he's going to present.
I was protesting what I thought was going to be "Why Mohemit isn't God's greatest messenger as the Mosullmons believe!" or some such foolishness. I watched that last debate you linked me in. It was boring as hell, because I didn't like the Muslim dude's approach, so i'm not against the format. I'm just letting you know that I'm not about to sit under Jerry Farwell's or whoever's 2 hour anti-Muhammad rant like I thought at first. hahaha
Kirb Brimstone - Ok
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "When have I linked you to anti-Islamic propaganda? Honestly?"
1.) The Truth About "Islamic" Slavery
2.) RESPONSE - Former Muslim Turned Christian Conversion Tale
Kirb Brimstone - The second Isn't propaganda. It's something you disagree with but propaganda it is not because it is neither biased nor misleading.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "So I am sorry I linked to something that made you feel hurt angry or upset but sometimes the truth hurts, makes us angry, or upset."
So you think Muhammad IS God's greatest messenger, despite what Allah said about the believer not treating any of them different than the others.
Kirb Brimstone - I believe Muhammad is a false prophet who has led a great many people astray. I was talking about in general that sometimes we see things that are offensive but is also at the same time true.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "The second Isn't propaganda. It's something you disagree with but propaganda it is not because it is neither biased nor misleading."
This is not true for reasons I explained in the original thread you linked me in. Nabeel had a poor understanding of the religion, because he was one of those "Cultural Muslims." He revealed that in his bio, which made his entire presentation, to a Christian audience, biased and misleading because they trusted him that he knew what he was talking about RE: Islam.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Muhammad is a false prophet..."
Why do you believe that, when it was your "St." Paul who fulfilled those requirements listed in Deuteronomy?
Kirb Brimstone - Oh my Mo.
I'm not sure you understand Christianity. Not every notable figure in the Bible is a Prophet. A Prophet according to the Bible is a person who makes prediction about the future. King David was not a Prophet. The apostle Paul (to my knowledge) wasn't a Prophet. Simply writing holy scripture does not a Prophet make. It seems that Islam equates a writer of holy scripture with a Prophet. In Judeo-Christian worldview a Prophet is one who is given predictions of the future by God. Even still Paul meets the criteria more than Muhammad. Paul is a fellow Israelite. Paul speaks in the given name of the one true God (Yahweh) not just the generic Allah. Muhammad meets neither of those criteria.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "I'm not sure you understand Christianity."
I'm more Christian than you are. Between the two of us, YOU'RE the one who's going to get the grimming/stiff arm from Jesus when we go to get his autograph. "Nigga, I don't know you."
Kirb Brimstone - Well Mo that's what we disagree on. I agree with Jesus that he is who he claim to be and you take the word of a man who came some 1400 years after. But then again you'd probably correct me and say it isn't the writing of a man. But that's the point MO this is where we disagree. So instead of just stating what we believe let's watch the video and discuss it.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "A Prophet according to the Bible..."
All revelation confirms & fulfills the scripture that came before it, and corrects the areas the previous guardians allowed their charges to stray. All the revelations from God functioned that way, and the Qur'an is no exception. You cannot 'school' the follower of the Qur'an with the bible that is shamefully tainted with the paganism of messenger worship. Stop. You sound silly in the attempt.
Kirb Brimstone - Again you keep stating what you believe as if it's neutral ground but I don't agree that the Quran is Holy Scripture nor do I believe it fulfills anything the Bible has to say. Nor do I believe the Bible is corrupt (neither did Mohammed for that matter)
Muhammad Rasheed - That's like a raggedy Pharisee telling the Christ he rejects his message and prefers to believe his interpretation of Moses scrolls.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Again you keep stating what you believe as if it's neutral ground but I don't agree that the Quran is Holy Scripture..."
That's because you enjoy being wrong in these exchanges, and love building up evidence against yourself for the Last Day. Good luck.
Kirb Brimstone - Yeah but the Pharisees didn't disagree with his interpretation of Moses because when the truth was spoken by the God-man they couldn't ignore it they simply hated him for speaking it and undermining their authority. What pissed off the Pharisees is when he claimed to be God. So they crucified him on charges of blasphemy.
Muhammad Rasheed - Jesus never claimed to be God. They hated the Christ because he refused to aid & abet their evil practices (usury, hiding the Word they didn't agree with, etc.)
Kirb Brimstone - Well except for the fact that any historian breathing flatly disagrees with that.
Muhammad Rasheed - They hated him because Jesus held them accountable for what the Lord thy God commanded.
Muhammad Rasheed - I worship God, not the wrong-headed historians you apparently bow down to. Again good luck.
Kirb Brimstone - Anyone who understands Jewish thought understands that Jesus clearly invoked deity when he claimed to sit at the right hand of God and share glory with the one God who shares Glory with no one.
Muhammad Rasheed - The NT was written by Paul and his followers and didn't reflect the message of Jesus, except in bits and pieces scattered throughout.
Kirb Brimstone - Understanding science doesn't make me worship scientist. Understanding history doesn't make me worship historians. I worship the true and Only God Jesus Christ King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Muhammad Rasheed - Repent of this foolishness, accept Islam, and bow down to the Lord thy God as a Muslim so you may enter paradise.
Kirb Brimstone - Again you prove that you don't understand anything about the Bible as the New Testament has several authors one of them is Paul. You just parroting the same Islamic dare I say propaganda that no historian attest to.
Muhammad Rasheed - Repent of your pagan-tainted foolishness, accept Islam, and bow down to the Lord thy God as a Muslim so you may enter paradise.
Muhammad Rasheed - Stop worshiping the messenger as a deity, and stop building up evidence against your soul. Repent, and save yourself from hell.
Kirb Brimstone - Repent of your wickedness and come to know the true God of Abraham and Isaac father of Yeshua the Messiah. I pray you abandon your false prophet as it will lead you to the snare of the devil.
Muhammad Rasheed - Between the two of us, I alone worship the God of Abraham the true in faith, who gave not partners to his Lord. Repent of your pagan-tainted foolishness, accept Islam, and bow down to the Lord thy God as a Muslim so you may enter paradise.
Kirb Brimstone - Tonight we both declared our religious beliefs at each other can we talk about the video now?
Muhammad Rasheed - No. it's 12:55am over here, and I have to get up at 6am. there's no way I'm watching a 2 hr snoozefest this morning. Are you crazy?
Kirb Brimstone - Mo we think the other is going to hell. What good does to do to just State our beliefs at each other?
Kirb Brimstone - You want me to repent I want you to repent. I get it let's get into the actual facts and see which one of us is right. We're both too devout religious men who have strong beliefs simply stating those beliefs at each other isn't going to solve anything. I say why don't we investigate the facts and evidence and see where they point with an open mind?
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Mo we think the other is going to hell. What good does to do to just State our beliefs at each other?"
Why are you asking me this when you're the one that keeps reaching out to ME for these arguments? Answer the question yourself and then we'll both know.
Actually God said the Christian will only go to hell if your bad deeds outweigh your good deeds (worshiping Jesus is a bad deed btw).
Kirb Brimstone - Actually no, because I worship Jesus as God according to Islam I am committing shirk and thus doomed to the worst hell if Islam is correct. Likewise you reject God by rejecting Jesus as he revealed himself according to Christianity and so will Doom yourself to eternal damnation. I link You on these things cuz I don't want that to happen
Kirb Brimstone - I like you Mo. I worry about your Eternal future like I think you worry about mine. I'm may do it clumsily but the intention is well.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Actually no according to Islam..."
Allah, in the Qur'an, said about 3x or so that you as a Christian will receive paradise if your good deeds outweigh your bad. That means for every time you worship Jesus, you must do at least two good deeds to match it to make sure your good record is heavier.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "...as he revealed himself according to Christianity..."
Revealed scripture confirms & fulfills the scripture that came before it, and sets to rights those areas the previous guardians allowed their charges to go astray. This is Abrahamic Faith 101. "Revealed himself according to Christianity" is nonsensical babbling, sir. Repent, and save yourself from the Fire.
Kirb Brimstone - Islam has a strange justice system. If I steal a man's car and then buy 2 house for 2 old ladies is not the first man still wronged?
Not to mention the greatest offense which is committed against God. That's one of my biggest problems with the Islamic conception of God, he is not just. Merciful sure but just he is not.
Muhammad Rasheed - Are you talking about Sharia nonsense as "Islamic justice?" Where did you get that from?
Muhammad Rasheed - What's the greatest offense?
Kirb Brimstone - I'm talking about weighing your good deeds against your bad Deeds. In Islam if your good deeds outweigh your bad Deeds the bad Deeds still go unpunished. That's unjust in my opinion. A price must be paid for the crime of sinning against God.
Muhammad Rasheed - Between the two of you -- Michael Carter vs God -- which one of you invented mathematics from scratch, Kirb?
Kirb Brimstone - The circular logic is annoying you keep assuming your point to prove your point. I don't believe the god of Islam is the actual God. That is what we are arguing about you can't assume that the god of Islam is God.
Muhammad Rasheed - There is only One God. There are no multiple deities competing for a seat; there is Abraham's Lord and no other. You love demonstrating your penchant for filthy pagan taint.
Muhammad Rasheed - Between the two of you -- Michael Carter vs God -- which one of you invented mathematics from scratch, Kirb?
Kirb Brimstone - And Islamic perception of God is false.
Muhammad Rasheed - The Qur'an is the final revelation of the Lord thy God, Creator of Christ Jesus, son of Mary. You love building up evidence against yourself for the Last Day. I've been noticing that about you.
Kirb Brimstone - You're right Mo God invented mathematics.
Muhammad Rasheed - Then why do you believe your feeble, impotent opinion about ANYTHING trumps His?
Kirb Brimstone - What that have to do with islamics flawed conception of God I have no idea.
Muhammad Rasheed - I don't understand why you even challenge me to these things. Honestly.
Kirb Brimstone - "Then why do you believe your feeble, impotent opinion about ANYTHING trumps His?"
Oh give me a break that is what we are arguing. Is that God's opinion I say it isn't. I have logic and reason to backup my reasoning you just assume that you are correct. If you continue like this this will be a waste of time for me
Muhammad Rasheed - Do you expect me to set Al-Islam to the side, and argue it the way you want me to, from your quasi-pagan viewpoint?
That's it, isn't it?
Kirb Brimstone - No I expect you not to use Circle reason to defend Islam. You don't have to set aside Islam to use logic. It doesn't matter what you're talking about you don't assume the point you're trying to prove.
Kirb Brimstone - From now on it will only respond when you give me a reason to believe that Islam has the correct conception of God.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Is that God's opinion I say it isn't."
Okay, well, that's exactly my point. The Supreme Creator of the heavens and the earth, Master of the Day of Judgment said it is JUST, and widdle kirby brimstone said "no, it's not."
So what am I supposed to be expected to do with that?
Kirb Brimstone - How do you know thank God says that it is just?
Muhammad Rasheed - How else does the believer in Abraham's Lord know what God said?
Kirb Brimstone - Tell me Mo?
Muhammad Rasheed - He said so in His Book.
Kirb Brimstone - How do you know which book is his book?
Muhammad Rasheed - Because "that prophet" from the Deut 18:18 prophecy was raised up in the children of Israel's brethren nation, and that Book was revealed through him for us. And the Lord thy God does not lie.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "From now on it will only respond when you give me a reason to believe that Islam has the correct conception of God."
Naturally I expect you to do the opposite of this, and continue to reject those very same reasons until you find yourself being roughly seized by the scruff of the neck by the angel.
Kirb Brimstone - Then again in Islam there is no such thing as a writer Holy Scripture. In Islam God dictates to the messenger.
Muhammad Rasheed - Messenger being Gabriel in that case.
Kirb Brimstone - Sure. Who then dictates to the messenger of God. Is that a correct understanding?
Muhammad Rasheed - Yes.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Likewise you reject God by rejecting Jesus..."
I do not reject Jesus. I love him, and recognize his message as true. I would not be a Muslim if I did not do so. BELIEF IN THE PROPHETS.
Kirb Brimstone wrote:"...as he revealed himself according to Christianity..."
That means nothing. It's babbling.
Kirb Brimstone wrote: "...and so will Doom yourself to eternal damnation."
By accepting the messenger's message as true? lol That's literally the exact opposite of what the Lord thy God promised.
Kirb Brimstone wrote: "I link You on these things cuz I don't want that to happen"
Know you that should I reject the religion of Islam that the Lord of Abraham perfected for mankind, and took another in its place, hell would be my reward, and NO ONE could save me. Your insane attempts to pull me into your pagan-tainted faith literally beckon me to the Fire.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "I say why don't we investigate the facts and evidence and see where they point with an open mind?"
lol You've already rejected the facts and evidence by:
1.) refusing to recognize Paul as the false prophet in Deut.
2.) rejecting the historical fact (by scientific Christian historians... the same ones you claim don't exist) that the 4 gospels were not writ by the men whose names they bear
3.) rejecting the historical fact that the 4 gospels were written after Paul's death
4.) rejecting that James the Just, younger brother of Jesus, the Christ's hand-picked heir, and leader of the First Church of Jerusalem was the true propagator of the Word, and the enemy of Paul and his false "divine son" blasphemies.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Not every notable figure in the Bible is a Prophet."
Who? Like Nimrod and Pharaoh? lol
Kirb Brimstone wrote: "A Prophet according to the Bible is a person who makes prediction about the future."
All of the messengers of God prophesied the coming of the Day of Judgment, a major part of God's enduring scripture of the ages. Therefore they were ALL prophets.
Kirb Brimstone wrote: "King David was not a Prophet."
Of course he was. See above. Plus God point blank said he was.
Kirb Brimstone wrote: "The apostle Paul (to my knowledge) wasn't a Prophet."
That's what I said. He was a false prophet. Use the criteria for false prophet from Deut. as a checklist and see for yourself.
Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Simply writing holy scripture does not a Prophet make."
Well, he certainly didn't write any of that. Anything holy in Paul's writing came from copying real scripture quotes to make a point. He was a fraud.
Kirb Brimstone wrote: "It seems that Islam equates a writer of holy scripture with a Prophet."
The prophets of God predicted the final cataclysm, the resurrection of mankind, and the coming Day of Judgment.
Kirb Brimstone wrote: "In Judeo-Christian worldview a Prophet is one who is given predictions of the future by God."
Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Even still Paul meets the criteria more than Muhammad."
Use the criteria of "a prophet like you, Moses" from Deut. 18 as a checklist and measure them both against it. Naturally I will expect you to thus reject the revealed facts & evidence you earlier claimed you wanted to see.
Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Paul is a fellow Israelite."
Hell will be filled with MANY Israelites.
Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Paul speaks in the given name of the one true God (Yahweh) not just the generic Allah."
What are you talking about? The pronunciation of the True Name had been lost for centuries before Paul's birth.
Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Muhammad meets neither of those criteria."
Making up criteria willy-nilly isn't proof of anything. Why deliberately ignore the Word's official criteria for the task?
Kirb Brimstone - 1) Why should I? I never claimed to be a prophet and he actually meet the criteria if had he claimed to be a prophet.
2.) Why is this even important let's say you're right which I don't agree you are what does this have to do with the historicity the Death and resurrection of Christ? Which is the central point of Christianity.
3.) This is an effect nor is it accepted by any historian either critical or otherwise.
4.) Now this is Islamic propaganda if I've ever heard any. The majority of New Testament historians do not hold the James was an enemy of Paul. In fact the majority historians agree that Paul interviewed James and Peter and found his gospel to be the same as James and Peter gospel.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "1) Why should I?"
Because you're the one that wanted to have a contest to determine definitively whose side the facts & evidence lay upon.
Kirb Brimstone wrote: "I never claimed to be a prophet and he actually meet the criteria if had he claimed to be a prophet."
Your weird "why should I?" is saying you refuse to measure Paul's actions/character against the Deut list of false prophet criteria traits. Where else would the criteria list come from if not from the Word?
Kirb Brimstone wrote: "2.) Why is this even important..."
Why isn't it important that the people who are claimed to have chronicled Jesus' life, turned out NOT to have chronicled Jesus' life??? Is this a question???
Kirb Brimstone wrote: "...let's say you're right which I don't agree you are what does this have to do with the historicity the Death and resurrection of Christ? Which is the central point of Christianity."
If the books you are using DIDN'T come from whoever the doctrine traditions claim they came from, then WHY DO YOU BELIEVE IT??? The ENTIRE bible tells you to worship God alone and follow the way of the string of chronicled Hebrew messengers that preached the message, but SUDDENLY!!! these mysterious, fraud books that DIDN'T come from Luke, Mark, John, Matthew tell you to ALSO worship this one Hebrew prophet, too, in a sociopathic WILD act of inconsistency with literally EVERYTHING that God said before (and after). But you're cool with that???? That's LOGICAL and REASONABLE to you??? Because it's batshit crazy that you believe that to me! Your eternal soul is at stake! But whatever. Do you. smh
Kirb Brimstone wrote: "3.) This is an effect nor is it accepted by any historian either critical or otherwise."
Meanwhile it is absolutely recognized as true by Christian scholars based on study of the archaeology, linguistics, etc.
Kirb Brimstone wrote: "4.) Now this is Islamic propaganda if I've ever heard any. The majority of New Testament historians do not hold the James was an enemy of Paul. In fact the majority historians agree that Paul interviewed James and Peter and found his gospel to be the same as James and Peter gospel."
My sources used were a high-ranking Christian cleric, and a Jew. Neither had a fondness for Islam.
Kirb Brimstone - Where did David make a prophecy?
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "In fact the majority historians agree that..."
Your "Appeal to the People" logical fallacy is growing tiresome. Are you going to argue for real or play like you are? Pick one so I'll know whether to take you seriously or not.
Kirb Brimstone - When a rogue historian agrees with you I should accept it. When the majority of Scholars who study the field we are talking about this agrees with you you dismiss it as me appealing to people which isn't an actual fallacy perhaps you meant appeal to Authority which this isn't.
Muhammad Rasheed - Your "majority of scholars" are only regurgitating the doctrine itself, they aren't engaged in scriptural scholarship.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "...you dismiss it as me appealing to people which isn't an actual fallacy perhaps you meant appeal to Authority which this isn't."
"An argumentum ad populum (Latin for 'appeal to the people') is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: 'If many believe so, it is so.'"
Brandon Martinez - "There will be no back and forth" ??
Muhammad Rasheed - You are mistaken. This is actually called "forth and forth." :P
Kirb Brimstone - If we take the Islamist interpretation you turn Duet into babbling nonsense.
Muhammad Rasheed - "awkh" means the generic "a brother" and depending on the context can represent the following possible meanings:
alike, another, brethren, brother, brother with his brothers, brother's, brotherhood, brothers, brothers', companions, countryman, countryman's, countrymen, fellow, fellow countryman, fellow countrymen , fellows , kinsman , kinsmen, nephew, other, relative, relatives.
Kirb Brimstone - Awkh most common usage in Duet meant fellow Israelite. I gave an example and it couldn't have meant what you say it means.
They fact is that prophecy has been fulfilled in prophets like Daniel, Elijah, and Ezekiel.
Muhammad Rasheed - "Most common usage" has nothing to do with the usage in Deut we are currently discussing. I'm positive you are flirting with another falacy with that silliness.
Kirb Brimstone - It's a indication of what the usage here would be the question is how is that word being used in this instance. It's called hermeneutics.
Muhammad Rasheed - The way words are used varies with context, so "most common usage" doesn't automatically mean that the word is being used in the same context. You WANT it to mean something in particular, so you are deliberately ignoring far stronger items involved to perform your "hermeneutic" fallacy gymnastics.
Kirb Brimstone - Here is Deuteronomy 18:18 in context.
15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen— 16 just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.’ 17 And the Lord said to me, ‘They are right in what they have spoken. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19 And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or[f] who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.
Muhammad Rasheed - >:( How come you didn't split the verses up so it wasn't a messy jumble?
Kirb Brimstone - Mohammad doesn't qualify as he is not " from your brothers" he is an Arab not an Isrealite.
Kirb Brimstone - You try to force him where he does not fit. So again how do you know which text is "written" by God?
Muhammad Rasheed - The Arab is the brethren nation of the Israelite. Why is that confusing to you?
Muhammad Rasheed - Deuteronomy 18:15-22 (KJV)
15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Kirb Brimstone - Okay I don't know why you used King James Version as we don't speak old English anymore but I role with it.
Mohammad isn't thy brethren, like unto me (Moses)
Muhammad Rasheed - I use the Old English Yusuf Ali translation of the Qur'an, too. I just like that archaic dialect when reading the Word. It's cool.
Muhammad Rasheed - 18:18... This is God talking TO Moses. He will raise up a prophet who is like Moses from among their brethren, and he will speak only 'In the Name of God.'
Kirb Brimstone - Muhammad Rasheed Sorry you are correct. Foolish mistake.
Mohammad isn't "from the midst of thee, of thy brethren" (verse 15) and he isn't "a Prophet from among their brethren" (verse 18) which means a Hebrew/Jew/Israelite.
Muhammad Rasheed - Their brethren are the Arabs, and he was raised up among them. Muhammad is definitely "like" Moses as he was a prophet-king among the people.
Kirb Brimstone - "The Arab is the brethren nation of the Israelite. Why is that confusing to you?"
Nonsense. The Hebrew word awkh is used at least 14 times it means 'fellow Israelites' - members of the 12 tribes. Twice it is used to ref. the Edomites, and once for Levitical brothers, once for literal brothers (25:5), and twice for the verses in question: 18:15,18.
Therefore, the overwhelming majority of times the context is used for referring to 'fellow Israelites'.
Muhammad Rasheed - ^ Babbling drivel. Quit.
Kirb Brimstone - o let's carefully examine the verses in question, and see if we can find any clues to the context in question. Let's start with verse 14. The New International Version uses 'brothers' usually in place of the King James Version 'brethren'. Words in ( ) parenthesis are mine. From Deut. 18:
14: "The nations you (i.e. the Israelites) will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you (the Israelites), the Lord your (the Israelites) God has not permitted you (the Israelites) to do so.
15: The Lord your God will raise up for you (the Israelites) a prophet like me from among your (the Israelites) own "brothers". You (the Israelites) must listen to him.
16: For this is what you (the Israelites) asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you (the Israelites) said, "Let us (the Israelites) not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we (the Israelites) will die."
17: The Lord said to me "What they (the Israelites) say is good.
18: I will raise up for them (the Israelites) a prophet like you from among their (the Israelites) brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them (the Israelites) everything I command him.
19: If anyone (the Israelites) does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him (an Israelite) to account.
It's very clear here that the context for 'brethren' is from amongst the fellow Israelites. Not an Edomite, or other non-Israelite, who were not given the law, not part of the group Moses was addressing. Moses meant that the prophet would come out of the 12 Israelite tribes.
Kirb Brimstone - In Deut 17:15 a very strong statement is given regarding who "brothers" means in the verses in chapter 18:
"Be sure to appoint over you the King the Lord your God chooses. He must be "FROM AMONG YOUR OWN BROTHERS". Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not a "BROTHER ISRAELITE".
Compare these terms with 18:15 -
"The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me FROM AMONG YOUR OWN BROTHERS. You must listen to him."
Clearly, this verse has much in common with 17:15. Moses did not add 'brother Israelite', because they understood what he was talking about based upon what he had said just a few moments earlier in Chapter 17. The context is the same for both. The future prophet had to be a fellow Israelite.
Kirb Brimstone - So what does verse Deut 17:15 mean? Deut 17:15 you may indeed set a king over you whom the Lord your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother.
KJV thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee whom the Lord thy God shall choose. One from among thy brethren shalt thou set as king over thee; thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, who is not thy brother.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Moses did not add 'brother Israelite', because..."
...he wasn't talking about from among the Israelites. Duh. That's why "awkh" from above was babbling nonsense.
Kirb Brimstone - ?You saying God is commanding an Arab to be king of Israel? Same phrase here as in 18:15.
Muhammad Rasheed - No, because by the time that prophecy was fulfilled, "king of israel" was irrelevant.
Remember, God didn't want them to have a king anyway; He said "you have the messenger among you (Samuel)! Just do what he says!"
Kirb Brimstone - What does that have anything to do with what I am talking about?Go back and read the verse. Tell me if the "brethren" there means Brother race.
Muhammad Rasheed - lol I think it should be obvious that exactly what I think. It's specifically talking about their brethren nation under Ishmael. I haven't been clear about that?
Your job is to use logic/reason to convincingly explain how it isn't.
Kirb Brimstone - Muhammad Rasheed wrote: "lol I think it should be obvious that exactly what I think. It's specifically talking about their brethren nation under Ishmael. I haven't been clear about that?"
Let's plug in your interpretation of Deut 17:15 (KJV) and see if it fits:
thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee whom the Lord thy God shall choose. One from among thy brethren nation under Ishmael shalt thou set as king over thee; thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, who is not thy brother.
That doesn't seem to fit at all.
Mo wrote: "Your job is to use logic/reason to convincingly explain how it isn't."
Oh no you aren't going to shift the burden of proof here. You have just as much a burden to show that brethren is talking about A brethren nation under Ishmael. Why not a brethren nation under Adam? You haven't shouldered that burden you've only asserted your interpretation. I can at least point to other instances where the term clearly meant Israelites. Where else has this phrase "brethren" meant "brethren nation under Ishmael?"
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Let's plug in your interpretation of Deut 17:15 (KJV) and see if it fits [...] That doesn't seem to fit at all."
I don't know what "see if it fits" means in context; you aren't making yourself clear here. I'm telling you that to give you the opportunity to flesh that out better so I will understand your point, which at the moment I do not. The alternative is just to invent what I think you might be talking about in a straw man, and waste time arguing against that. I don't care to waste my time, so please help.
Kirb Brimstone quoted: "One from among thy brethren nation under Ishmael shalt thou set as king over thee; thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, who is not thy brother."
This is telling them to set Muhammad over them as king, which the local tribes did for a hot minute in Medina, before their jealousy consumed them to sin.
Kirb Brimstone wrote: "Mo wrote: 'Your job is to use logic/reason to convincingly explain how it isn't.' Oh no you aren't going to shift the burden of proof here."
I'm not shifting the burden of proof, I'm saying your job is to develop your counter-argument that proves my thesis wrong.
Kirb Brimstone wrote: "You have just as much a burden to show that brethren is talking about A brethren nation under Ishmael. Why not a brethren nation under Adam?"
Why not under the entire human species instead of just under Ishmael? Because Ishmael IS the historical brother of the Israelite patriarch Isaac. That's his LITERAL brother, as in they had the same earthly father. So we don't have to pretend the verse is talking about a "metaphorical brother" or a "spiritual brother" in a weird twist of over-complexity, because it's actually a REAL brother in the blooded sense. That means, under the principle of Occam's Razor, we can comfortably accept it at face value and interpret it as "Isaac's brethren nation is from his brother Ismael." Each of these two brothers... under the Abrahamic Covenant... was blessed to be patriarchs of whole nations: the Hebrew Nation under Isaac, and the Arab Nation under Ishmael. This is NOT a point of contention, but biblical FACT. "One from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother" means no less than one from the Arabs. Of course there was only one Arab that walked out the Word of the Lord thy God in a way that pleased God and met His high standard. Only one from that nation whom God anointed as a sublime example for humanity to follow his way as a believer in the One God. #logic #reason #scripturalAnalysis