Tuesday, December 22, 2015

TRICK QUESTION: Which Party Believes the Minimum Wage Decreases Unemployment?

Abdur Rasheed - Thomas Sowell wrote: “Minimum-wage laws are another issue where the words seem to carry great weight, leading to the fact-free assumption that such laws will cause wages to rise to the legally specified minimum. Various studies going back for decades indicate that minimum-wage laws create unemployment, especially among younger, less experienced, and less skilled workers.”

Let’s see using the ACTUAL NUMBERS…

Thomas Sowell wrote: “A discredited argument that first appeared back in 1946 recently surfaced again in a televised discussion of minimum wages. A recent survey of employers asked if they would fire workers if the minimum wage were raised. Two-thirds of the employers said that they would not. That was good enough for a minimum-wage advocate."

Discredited HOW? With a “SURVEY??”

You have got to be shitting me??

Why is it that EVERY TIME a Conservative doesn’t have the actual numbers and data on their side they quote a “SURVEY” of dumbass people and state it as a fact?

When the Owner of Papa John’s was asked how Obamacare would affect him he stated that he would be forced to raise his prices up to .14cents. Fox news ran that bullshit on a loop as an example of how Obamacare is destroying America and keeping people from getting extra cheese and shit.

Then he gave away 2 million pizzas for the Super bowl for free.

Then he sponsored a Mitt Romney fundraiser at his mansion.

Me: “Get that bullshit outta here!”

Then he raised his prices $3 and nobody batted an eye.

Papa Johns Pizza Prices... and Obamacare

Stop asking people with a political agenda what the fuck they think, Thomas! That’s why I don’t ask you shit.

Thomas Sowell wrote: “Unfortunately, the consequences of minimum-wage laws cannot be predicted on the basis of employers’ statements of their intentions. Nor can the consequences of a minimum-wage law be determined, even after the fact, by polling employers on what they did.

The problem with polls, in dealing with an empirical question like this, is that you can only poll survivors. Every surviving business in an industry might have as many employees as it had before a minimum-wage increase — and yet, if the additional labor costs led to fewer businesses’ surviving, there could still be a reduction in industry employment, despite what the poll results were from survivors."

Just so I’m getting this right… YOU JUST SIGHTED A SURVEY as proof and then you are discrediting surveys as proof??

Thomas Sowell wrote: “There are many other complications that make an empirical study of the effects of minimum wages much more difficult than it might seem.”

Yet here you are speaking out the side of your hole anyway.


Thomas Sowell wrote: “Since employment varies for many reasons other than a minimum-wage law, at any given time the effects of those other factors can outweigh the effects of minimum-wage laws. In that case, employment could go up after a particular minimum-wage increase — even if it goes up less than it would have without that increase.

Minimum-wage advocates can seize upon statistics collected in particular odd circumstances to declare that they have now “refuted” the “myth” that minimum wages cause unemployment.”

What are these “Odd circumstances?” Are these the circumstances that net in a result that you don’t agree with? Like, “It’s just a tiny little economic collapse of the entire financial market because I don’t like what the data says?”

If you take the unemployment rate year over year and compare those years with every time the minimum wage was raised and subtract economic recessions it will tell you definitively whether or not raising the minimum wage increases unemployment for young unskilled African Americans.

I have a 4.4% REDUCTION in African American Unemployment.

It’s not that hard if you’re honest.

Thomas Sowell wrote: “It is surely no coincidence that during the last administration in which there was no federal minimum wage — the Calvin Coolidge administration — unemployment ranged from a high of 4.2 percent to a low of 1.8 percent over its last four years. It is surely no coincidence that, when the federal minimum-wage law remained unchanged for twelve years while inflation rendered the law meaningless, the black teenage unemployment rate — even during the recession year of 1949 — was literally a fraction of what it has been throughout later years when the minimum-wage rate was raised repeatedly to keep up with inflation.”

So by THAT logic I guess it’s no coincidence that 12 years before there was a minimum wage law the unemployment rate was as high as 17.3 percent.

Cherry picking certain years of data and sighting it as a point in order to skew the data to prove your point is a little dishonest is it not?

Thomas Sowell wrote: “When words trump facts, you can believe anything. And the liberal groupthink taught in our schools and colleges is the path of least resistance.”

When cherry picked “data” comes out of an Uncle Tommy…

Muhammad Rasheed - "The economic analysis which concludes that minimum wages increase the unemployment of low-wage workers rests essentially on the belief that labor is no exception to the general rule that less is demanded at a higher price than at a lower price. Attempts to overturn this basic economic principle usually reduce to one of four assumptions or assertions: (1) there is a fixed number of workers demanded, more or less without regard to wage rates; (2) low-wage workers are victims of employer l monopoly power rather than low productivity, so that raising their wage rates will not price them beyond their value to the employer and therefore will not price them out of a job; (3) higher wage rates will cause employers to use labor more efficiently, so that workers will then become more valuable, and so will not lose their jobs; and (4) the increased "purchasing power" caused by higher minimum wages will lead to a greater demand for goods, and therefore a greater demand for labor, offsetting any tendency towards unemployment. These arguments will be examined in order." ~ Thomas Sowell, Minimum Wage Escalation

Abdur Rasheed
- So no thoughts of your own?

When did my brother turn into Kirby?

Instead of giving YOUR opinion you just quote quote somebody with an obvious political agenda? I'm surprized that you haven's started just replying with youtube clips of Alonso or Whittle.

Can YOU give me an example using say McDonalds?

Abdur Rasheed - It seems that the sole purpose of Thomas Sowell is to try and justify Conservative talking points with cherry picked data and pro corporate theories.

It's depresing to watch.

Whenever you find yourself willfully ignoring facts that are right in your face in favor of a theory it simply because you NEED to believe in the theory at all costs...it makes you look bad.

"There has been not ONE economic down turn, recession, or depression while were on the gold standard!"

Thats' not true. Here are 8 more not including "The Great Depression!"

"Well...those were minor."


"Minimum wages increase the unemployment of low-wage workers."

That's not true. Here are the ACTUAL numbers and it CLEARY shows that after ALL minimum wage increases from the last 40 years has led to a REDUCTION in low wage unemployment by 4.4%.

That's not ME talking out of my ass. That's what the data says.

If it said that the man was RIGHT I would say so. I don't work for a Conservative Foundation with a political agenda.

Conservatives don't pay me to justify their bullshit talking points.

Muhammad Rasheed
- Abdur Rasheed wrote: "So no thoughts of your own?"

lol Ironically, I have lots of thoughts of my own, that you routinely sidestep in favor of the GOP talking point caricature Muhammad you prefer to argue with ("You can't argue BOTH sides, Muhammad!") Other debate opponents have referred to my own opinions and analysis as "MRasheed-ism," including Neil P. In fact, that was the point of my "libertarian versus Libertarian" rant that you referenced above. I spent that entire thread fleshing out my personal theory, while you INSISTED I was merely regurgitating the thoughts of a 'guru.' Suddenly you want to actually hear my opinions, eh? Forgive me if I feel a pang of skepticism.

"Well...those were minor" was not my argument. The Great Depression bubble was something very different than that represented by the "panics" that happened in the pre-Federal Reserve Act era. Of course you completely ignored my actual argument in favor of the argument you wanted to give me so you could attack that. You keep doing it so I'll assume it's just easier. You're busy after-all, so it's understandable. Unfortunately I have to be the casualty of your lazy and dismissive argument style. I can't just casually have a discussion about something of interest -- challenging a contention not you -- without you making it a personal attack from the caricature Muhammad, because you need me to be Grimskill, Flex Hectic!, & Kirby in order to use your 'one-size-fits-all' argument kit. You refuse to adjust the kit to have a spirited discussion with your brother, therefore I have to be the enemy, too. lol It's cool though. If we do it often enough, I'll get to develop a specific style for these MRasheed/A-Rah convos. It'll be fun.

Both Sowell and you pointed out that the more narrowly focused relevant data needed was missing, so arguments had to be formulated from other areas, which you both did. You decided to draw left-leaning talking point specific, narrowly detailed conclusions from the wider range of general data, while Sowell decided to draw his conclusions from mostly economic principles and sourced academic studies. Between the two, your conclusions made the least sense.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: "Instead of giving YOUR opinion you just quote quote somebody"

Well, you used this status post, not to refute his Townhall column soundbite, but just to make fun of it. I thought I'd help you out by posting the original meatier paper he wrote on the topic, since you found that one to be too light & fluffy. I fail to see what my opinion had to do with it since this post is all about you versus Sowell, right?

Abdur Rasheed - Muhammad wrote: "Well, you used this status post, not to refute his Townhall column sound bite, but just to make fun of it."


So I would think that would sound like me just repeating what he said in a funny/sarcastic voice.

Thomas Sowell wrote a long and lengthy explanation of his theory regarding how raising the minimum wage increased unemployment among unskilled African Americans.

It sounded cool...until you pulled the actual data and compared it.

Either he was right or he was wrong.

He was wrong as fuck.

Raising the minimum wage showed a 4.4% REDUCTION in African American unemployment.

It's like he didn't even try to be honest.

Once I see that he was just lying I just lumped him into the Neil P bag and called him an UncleTom.

I ALWAYS look for the TRUTH.

As I said, "I don't get paid to justify talking points."

Either it IS or it AIN'T true.

You seem to just look for a way to prove the MAN right and you seem genuinely disinterested in the truth.

"I'm just going to believe him."

You do that.


Muhammad Rasheed - Abdur Rasheed wrote: "It sounded cool...until you pulled the data and compared it."

Okay, but that's not what happened. You were able to pull the wide ranging data, which included all demographics over a vast timeline, without being able to isolate the specific data set needed to confirm or refute the topic's contentions. He went the route of comparing it to the basic economic principles of his forte', while you called him names and pointed and laughed.

Considering the quality of info you both provided, siding with his stance is a no-brainer to me.

Abdur Rasheed - Muhammad wrote: "Okay, but that's not what happened."


Muhammad wrote: "You were able to pull the wide ranging data which included all demographics over a vast timeline, without being able to isolate the specific data needed to confirm or refute the topics contentions."

Who told you that??

I specifically asked you what data did you think was necessary to prove or disprove Sowell's theory. I had already pulled the data.

African American unemployment rate correlated with the years that the minimum wage was increased.

Is that NOT what we're talking about?

Where did you get that other broad scope data bullshit from?

See, you NEED him to be right at all costs.

I NEED to know the TRUTH.

Btw a "no brainer" isn't supposed to mean that you don't want to use your brain.

Muhammad Rasheed - Aren't you the one that pointed out that the demographics from that gov dept weren't split along racial lines until 1971? In Sowell's paper he also pointed out that specific data weren't available during the relevant time period, so all you can do is look at this wide 1948-2015 timeline of info dump and guess at whether the minimum wage did what you need it to have done to the people you wanted it to affect, and then proclaim that guess as a false truth.

You're bluffing. I'm not biting.

Abdur Rasheed - Uuuuum NO!

The government didn't split the data along racial lines until 1971.

Soooooo I used the data that is verified and available from 1971 until NOW because accuracy is important for what I believe.

If Sowell jumbled the data from 1948 then he is even more full of shit than I thought.

The data from 1971 that I used is a sample of 44 years worth of information and PLENTY ENOUGH to prove or disprove Sowell's theory.

From 1971 until 2015 African American Unemployment decreased every time the minimum wage was increased by a net total of 4.4%.

Look for YOURSELF and bite on that.

Muhammad Rasheed - Abdur Rasheed wrote: "Uuuuum NO!"

Uuuuum YES!

Muhammad Rasheed
- Is it really accurate to proclaim that minimum wage increases were responsible for that 4.4% drop? Of course not. What else was going on in the country that could have directly affected the unemployment drop realistically?

Let's dig... [holding]

Muhammad Rasheed - History of the Federal Minimum Wage according to the US Department of Labor - Wage & Hour Division:

In 1974 the minimum wage went up to 2.00 from 1968's 1.60.

In 1975 it went up to 2.10

In 1976 it went up to 2.30

In 1978 it went up to 2.65

In 1979 it went up to 2.90

In 1980 it went up to 3.10

In 1981 it went up to 3.35

In 1990 it went up to 3.80

In 1991 it went up to 4.25

In 1996 it went up to 4.75

In 1997 it went up to 5.15

In 2007 it went up to 5.85

In 2008 it went up to 6.55

In 2009 it went up to 7.25


Jimmy Carter is the one that raised it from 1.60 to 3.35.

George H. W. Bush is the one that raised it from 3.35 to 4.25.

Bill Clinton is the one that raised it from 4.25 to 5.15.

George W. Bush is the one that raised it from 5.15 to 6.55.

Barack Obama is the one that raised it from 6.55 to 7.25.

Muhammad Rasheed - During the terms of the two Bush presidents, there were wars going on. In fact, they were shoving poor black youth into the recruitment trucks by the neighborhood full. "War machine cannon fodder" is as legit a job title as any other I'd wager... could that alone be responsible for a good chunk of that 4.4% dip?

Maybe. What else do we have...

Muhammad Rasheed - The National Bureau of Economic Research sets Jun 2009 as the official end date of the Great Recession, and Obama increased the minimum wage the very next month. "YAAYY!! Wages are higher! Let's get these kids in here working... STAT!" Is that realistic? I think it does help boost the fiat economy, because it helps reverse [slightly] the effects of inflation, elevating the USD purchasing power for a minute, but is that WHY the black youth started working?


From Wiki -
(1) The American Recovery & Reinvestment Act of 2009 [...] was a stimulus package [...] signed into law on February 17, 2009, by President Barack Obama. To respond to the Great Recession, the primary objective for ARRA was to save and create jobs almost immediately. [...] The Act included direct spending [...] The rationale for ARRA was from Keynesian macroeconomic theory, which argues that, during recessions, the government should offset the decrease in private spending with an increase in public spending in order to save jobs and stop further economic deterioration.

Abdur Rasheed - Muhammad Rasheed wrote: "During the terms of the two Bush presidents, there were wars going on. In fact, they were shoving poor black youth into the recruitment trucks by the neighborhood full. "War machine cannon fodder" is as legit a job title as any other I'd wager... could that alone be responsible for a good chunk of that 4.4% dip?

Maybe. What else do we have..."

If you were ACTUALLY interested in the TRUTH and not just proving Sowell right you would have looked up the answer and not ASSUMED the answer.

"Military personnel are also automatically relegated to not in labor force status. This segment of the population is excluded from the civilian labor force because military personnel are not considered as resources available for productive activity. Moreover, the military operates under its own set of "employment" rules, apart from resource and labor markets that exist in the rest of the economy. The reasoning behind excluding this segment is perhaps most obvious during periods of rising and declining military activity (that is, during and immediately after wars). If military personnel are included in the labor force, then a major movement of civilians into the military has no apparent affect on the labor resources available for productive activity, when in fact, the quantity of labor available for domestic production declines."

So "No" the military didn't count in the labor force numbers.

Muhammad Rasheed - So if the poor black youth being shipped off overseas aren't counted, then who are the poor black youth who didn't go to war, but became employed?

Did they go the other route, and get their education, and work a minimum wage job busting their asses to improve their quality of life, while hearing reports of their best friends dying in Bush wars...?

Abdur Rasheed
- Muhammad wrote: "So if the poor black youth being shipped off overseas aren't counted, then who are the poor black youth who didn't go to war, but became employed?"

The ones who didn't join the military and got a job.

The answer was kinda baked in the cake right there.

Muhammad Rasheed
- lol The point was it the newly increased minimum wage that made them get a job, or were they already in school, and used the war time scare to knuckle down, went out and got a job to focus? Did college job money in the form of grants increase with the minimum wage?

Abdur Rasheed - I think thast these are all good questions for you to research and answer before you jump on the Sowell bandwagon.

There's nothing wrong with double checking people. Even people that you might respect and look up too.

Muhammad Rasheed - I think these are all areas to explore before we all decide that the partisan popular variable "minumum wage increases reduce unemployment" is the only valid one.

Abdur Rasheed - lol

You weren't that interested in fact checking Sowell. lol

Now you're like, "Lets slow down everybody before we all start jumping to comclusions and shit about my boy being wrong!"


Muhammad Rasheed
- lol Well, if you want to go there, in that MWE article I posted for you, he said there were numerous variables that affect unemployment. As you know, I trust his scholarship on that, so I'm more inclined to be open to other variables being present AND more meaningful, than take your popular talking point seriously at face value. The President's stimulus package and how it functioned, what its purpose was, and its timing pounded that nail home for me. Economic bubbles rise all the time. Did the other minimum wage hikes link up to "spend, Spend, SPEND!" jiggling as well?

At this point I think the ONLY reason they were increasing the minimum wage was to offset inflation. It had nothing to do with the unemployment, you just think that way because it's a leftist talking point and on your radar.

Abdur Rasheed
- Sounds good.

The problem with your need to stick me in a "leftest box" and dismiss me is that I never quoted a talking point like Sowell did, "The economic analysis which concludes that minimum wages increase the unemployment of low-wage workers"

I just got the actual numbers and crunched them.

No "talking point" needed from me.

Just the facts, Sir!

Just because the facts don't line up with Sowell's theory isn't my concern.

It SHOULD BE a concern of yours if you are going to just blindly follow the man.

You got offended at the thought of simply fact checking one of his points.


There is a driving motivation behind wanting to keep the minimum wage low or get rid of it all together.

Employees are the largest cost of a business.

MY payroll is about $120,000 a MONTH (labor, overtime, holiday pay and fringe benefits)

If you look at that amount on a P&L sheet every month with the year to date totals its easy for an executive to look at that as an easy was to increse profits by reducing head count.

Conservative speak against the minimum wage because their republican donars and PACS are the businesses.

U.S. Chamber of Commerce

Sowell's job is to try and justify the Conservative talking point against the minimum wage despite the FACTS.

Muhammad Rasheed - I don't have a need to stick you in a leftist box. But you are trumpeting a pet liberal belief, and upholding it on flimsy evidence. The facts AREN'T proving that the minimum wage hike lowered unemployment. Your "crunching" deliberately ignored any other variables, and you even proclaimed they didn't matter because you thought you saw what you wanted to see absent any actual analysis of the data. "This is doing that, that is doing that, all of this doesn't matter... I WIN!" That's not "facts." His "economic analysis" you dismissed actually does speak better to what the data showed since he wisely isn't of the opinion to dismiss other variables, which wouldn't make since anyway for someone only interested in facts and truth. That person should be driven to determine what influence the other variables actually have when compared to the easy popular partisan belief point so he can definitively KNOW what is fact or not. The president signed into effect an AGGRESSIVE "get jobs started NOW!" stimulus package, and along the way he went ahead and increased the minimum wage. If what you believe is true, why didn't he do that first? Why didn't increasing the minimum wage sit proudly on top of the stimulus package as its most potent "driving force" component?

The left may not use "talking points" in the strict way the GOP folk do, but they have their favored political beliefs just like their rivals.

Abdur Rasheed - So because you don't like the "facts" you just reject them?


First you wouldn't even LOOK at any information.

Muhammad: "He's brilliant and I have no need to doubt him and I don't want to fact check every single thing that he has ever done ever!"

Me: "Well how about this one thing?"

Muhammad: "NO!"

Me: "Here are the numbers that I came up with. Look for yourself. It looks like your boy is one some bullshit!"

Muhammad: "Well you must have included ALL of the general data and not just the African American data so i'm sticking with my hero, nah!"

Me: "Why would you assume that? I think that "Nah" was uncalled for, but whatever. I ONLY focused on the data availible within the parameters of our conversation. I wasnt trying to prove your hero wrong. I just want to know the truth. The facts just don't support his bullshit."

Muhammad: "Well your data must have included the military numbers. [plugs ears} LA LA LA LA LA LA!!!

Me" No my numbers don't include the military numbers."

Muhammad: "W...well....YOU'RE A LEFIST!!!!!"

Me: "I would be a goddamn Klansman if the data support it. It doesn't make ME wrong. His claim is either true or its NOT. Sorry Bro...it's NOT. Your boy is full of shit. You KNOW that he has a political agenda yet you are desperatly trying to dismiss the actual data because ehe said so. The differnce between Sowell and Me is that he's telling you to believe HIM because "come on dawg you know how liberals are" and I'm telling you to look up the data for YOURSELF."

Only ONE of us is trying to bullshit you.

It ain't the good looking one.


Abdur RasheedCarly Fiorina: Raising the Minimum Wage Will Lead to ‘Less Opportunity’

Abdur RasheedTrump defends minimum wage comments

Abdur RasheedBen Carson said raising the minimum wage will increase joblessness

Abdur Rasheed – Sen. Cruz: Minimum Wage Hike Would Cost Jobs for Young People, Hispanics, African Americans

Abdur Rasheed
Romney on the Minimum Wage

Abdur Rasheed
Paul claimed that raising the minimum wage hurts “minorities and kids.”

Abdur Rasheed
- Because raising the minimum wage ISN'T the best way to raise people's pay! People need tax reform and less government regulations.


GOP Candidates Resoundingly Reject The Idea Of A Minimum Wage Hike

Abdur Rasheed - Muhammad wrote: "I don't have a need to stick you in a leftist box. But YOU are trumpeting a pet liberal belief, and upholding it on flimsy evidence."

Am I now???


You keep trying to separate Sowell's tripe from his politics and accuse ME of using talking points at the same time.


Muhammad Rasheed - Sowell is an economist. He only 'politics' from the arms of his living room couch, such as it is. What the GOP talking heads do with his writings, or how they choose to interpret/express them, IS separate from Sowell.

Abdur Rasheed wrote: "Am I now???"


[From Wiki] "Carter's tenure was a time of continuing inflation and recession." This helps support my theory that minimum wages are increased as a tool to offset inflation... not to lower unemployment. My dislike of the fiat debt culture system under the Fed is why I disagree with Dr. Sowell over the need to keep increasing the minimum wage to keep pace with inflation. If we're going to be in it, then at least we can make it fair. As fair as possible anyway.

Tell me how do you think the minimum wage hikes directly affect unemployment, please.

Abdur Rasheed - That was never the question Muhammad.

I never write a book and an article and get worshiped as if I wrote volume 2 of the Holy Quran.

Sowell said that raising the minimum wage increases unemployment of low wage workers.

You would do better asking Sowell what corner of his colon he pulled his data from, because the facts don't support his tripe.

I can tell you definitively that raising the minimum wage doesn't increase unemployment for minorities.

Abdur Rasheed - Muhammad wrote: "Is it really accurate to proclaim that minimum wage increases were responsible for that 4.4% drop? Of course not. What else was going on in the country that could have directly affected the unemployment drop realistically?

Let's dig... [holding]"

Sowell's theory is that a minimum wage increase INCREASES unskilled unemployment for African Americans.

The FACT that it actually decreased when the minimum wage increased and the variables behind it doesn't matter.

What matters is if Sowells theory is factual or not.

If African American unemployment had actually went UP like Sowell said by 4.4% you would have been like, "SEE!!!!!! That's why he's my hero!"

The fact that he was wrong now you're like, "Must be the black kids who joined the military because my hero is never wrong. He wrote a book and everything!"

Muhammad Rasheed - The fact that there are many other variables that affect unemployment, including aggressive job creation stimulus packages, and other items put into place by the leader of the free world, absolutely does matter. How do you know the minimum wage is what did it when it alone wasn't the only variable involved? Why are you so positive that the minimum wage was the only variable that mattered?

Abdur Rasheed - I removed the recessions and the stimulus and got a gain of 4.4%.

If I DIDN'T get a gain and netted ZERO Sowell would still be wrong. Because that's still NOT an increase in African American Unemployment.

I didn't have to prove that Unemployment was reduced. It just is what it is.

Abdur Rasheed - Track National Unemployment, Job Gains and Job Losses

Abdur Rasheed - You quoting Sowell's books and articles on this stuff when everything he wrote on the subject is based on a pro corporate LIE.

Even if there are other variables which makes it impossible to say wether the increase in the minimum wage caused african american employment to go down like the raw data suggests...it SURE AS SHIT DIDN'T CAUSE IT TO GO UP!!

Muhammad Rasheed - That's not a real argument. Quit.

Abdur Rasheed - No?

If Sowell said and wrote that, "Minimum wages increase the unemployment of low-wage workers"

Then it's either true or its NOT, right?

The burden ISN'T to prove that the Unemployment rates went DOWN.

THAT is the very argument that we have been going back and forth over.

Does the unemployment rate for low wage workers increase as the minimum wage increases or NOT??

The minimum wage has increased 14 times in the last 44 years as you have pointed out.

From the department of Labor and Statistics data sorted under the following parameters

Labor Force Statistics from the Current Population Survey

Original Data Value

Series Id: LNS14000006

Seasonally Adjusted

Series title: (Seas) Unemployment Rate - Black or African American

Labor force status: Unemployment rate

Type of data: Percent or rate

Age: 16 years and over

Race: Black or African American

Years: 1972 to 2015

I removed the recessions because obviously that would skew the data because the unemployment sky rocket for everybody across the board and that isn't a true representation of the facts.

I ran the numbers with and without the recessions.

We have had 6 recessions since 1973.

The total unemployment rate during the 6 recessions netted a unemployment GAIN of 17.1 percent during and after the periods after the raise in the minimum wage.

Not including the recessions netted a LOSS of -4.9%.

Muhammad Rasheed - So you removed the recessions, but had to leave the minimum wage hikes since that's what we're looking for. But the minimum wage was hiked as a part of the strategy for dealing with the recessions...? Help me out here.

Abdur Rasheed - The recessions were for certain months. I ran the numbers with and without those months.

Help you out???

If you really gave a shit then you would have done it yourself.

You're going to fact check ME though, huh?


Muhammad Rasheed - Did the minimum wage increases match with those months?

Abdur Rasheed - You didn't get the spread sheet that I sent?

Muhammad Rasheed - In this thread? Or the carter meme one?

Abdur Rasheed - The recessions lasted months (a few were a year and a few months.)

The minimum wage increases lasted for years.

It wasn't difficult at all.

Abdur Rasheed - E-mail

I can't send an excel file on Facebook.

Muhammad Rasheed - Here, check this out:

Muhammad Rasheed - Keeping wages low isn't helping the workers, of course. The minimum wage was hiked up to offset inflation, and enable those now lowered wages to have a bit more purchasing power.

Sure the increases lasted for years, but they were put in place initially as a counter-balance for something specific... not unemployment itself. As the economy improved over those years, and businesses did better and were able to hire more workers, they did so. Why are they assuming it was the minimum wage increases itself that did it?

My issue right now is figuring out the reason why people have been saying that the minimum wage does improve unemployment. Who is the first person to suggest it?

Abdur Rasheed - You are.

I never said it and yet you keep asking me.

I KEEP saying that the republican talking point isn't supported by the actual data.

Muhammad Rasheed - I meant improve it. That increasing the minimum wage cures unemployment. The GOP talking heads said it doesn't.

Abdur Rasheed - They are only are speaking against the minimum wage. No one ever said that it cured unemployment.

There was no counter argument pendulum swing.

Only that they are WRONG and raising the minimum wage doesn't increase unemployment and the data doesn't support the GOP talking point. .

Muhammad Rasheed - Abdur Rasheed wrote: "There was no counter argument pendulum swing."

Oh. Hm.

Muhammad Rasheed
- (i wasn't really expecting that. lol)

Abdur Rasheed
- That's because you weren't listening to me.

Muhammad Rasheed

Muhammad Rasheed
- (now i have to regroup)

Abdur Rasheed - Did Sowell say that was the counter argument and I missed it?

Everything that I read that you posted was just him justifying the GOP talking point and not saying that there was a counter swing.

He was just trying to prove that raising the minimum wage was a bad idea for low skilled workers.

Muhammad Rasheed
- It's clearly a good idea for low-skilled workers, because if the tiny bit of money they do make doesn't have enough purchasing power to by basic necessities, then what the eff are they working for? Practice?

Muhammad Rasheed - I just assumed there was a mirror image opposite because... well...

...partisan stuff.

Muhammad Rasheed - MY BAD!!!

Abdur Rasheed - Did you get the spreadsheet?

Muhammad Rasheed - Yes. I grabbed the original one out of the Junk/HAZMAT folder.

Abdur Rasheed
- I highlighted the recession months in yellow and ran the runners with and without.

The first time i didn't take the time to pull out only the recession months and it gave me an average of 4.4% reduction.

This time I took the time to pull out only the individual months of recessions to make it more accurate and got an unemployment reduction of 4.9%.

I can definitively say that it didn't increase.

Abdur Rasheed - Numbers don't lie.

Muhammad Rasheed
- This is all your fault anyway. I just came to challenge the Carter Meme....

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