Saturday, April 18, 2015
The Abandonment & Vilification of an Old Friend
Kamau Mkafele Mshale – [shared meme]
Brian Joseph - It's actually working perfectly.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale - Right
Yumy Odom - Indeed!
Brian Joseph - I'm gonna have to post this info graphic sir.
Muhammad Rasheed - The frustrating part is that none of those items have anything to do with capitalism. Capitalism is actually what will enable us to be economically empowered, that's why the plutocracy, and their political puppets, sabotage the life blood of that system to keep you poor, while allowing you to think that the very system you actually need to be free is your enemy.
Muhammad Rasheed - Of course, we won't recognize that until your misguided activism ends up destroying capitalism itself and replacing it with some over-the-top bullsh*t that's simply the next level up from what is reflected in this graphic.
Yumy Odom - Bro. Muhammad Rasheed, would you please define "capitalism" so that we are on the same page...
Kamau Mkafele Mshale - Yea rah I think that is all capitalism at work. I don't think you can do away with capitalism but I think we need a system that is far more socialist than capitalist. Like 85% socialist. Instead of socialism being a dirty word. Specially eurocentric capitalism. Most muslims dont like the idea of interest on loans. Thats another example of capitalist values. Greed and self intrest only does not work
Muhammad Rasheed - CAPITALISM - economic system in which: (1) private ownership of property exists; (2) the income from property or capital accrues to the individuals or firms that accumulated it and own it; (3) individuals and firms are relatively free to compete with others for their own economic gain; and (4) the profit motive is basic to economic life. Contrast with COMMUNISM; SOCIALISM
~Barron's Business Guide, Dictionary of Business Terms, Third Edition
Muhammad Rasheed - All of the things you hate about "capitalism" actually are not part of capitalism.
Joe Lovece - Capitalism exists to make profit. No other considerations. That's the problem. It gave us slavery, debt and poverty. Pure capitalism is dangerous, as we are seeing in this country.
Muhammad Rasheed - Joe Lovece wrote: “Capitalism exists to make profit.”
Capitalism exists to enable the individual to own his/her own stuff and live life free to pursue their own endeavors.
Joe Lovece wrote: “No other considerations.”
It doesn’t need to have any other considerations. That what the other systems in our lives are for. Individual humans add their morals, and laws and stuff to it to create a complete system.
Joe Lovece wrote: “That's the problem.”
The problem is those who preach the belief that capitalism is wrong because it isn’t a complete human system with morals built in.
Joe Lovece wrote: “It gave us slavery, debt and poverty.”
No. Individuals use the open road of capitalism to conduct the type of business that is allowed. Capitalism doesn’t give it to you, individuals give it to you. Debt doesn’t have anything to do with capitalism. In fact, our debt culture is controlled by a cartel, which is the traditional enemy of capitalism (another point to my frustration when y’all talk like this).
Joe Lovece wrote: “Pure capitalism is dangerous, as we are seeing in this country.”
We don’t have a pure capitalism system. That’s actually the real problem. The “fat cat” mega-corporations are in a continuous process of stifling the markets and obstructing capitalism so they won’t have any competition. They want the markets all to themselves and in many industries have already succeeded. That’s literally NOT capitalism.
Joe Lovece - Capitalism is an economic system designed to generate profits. Whatever you use the profits for is your business, whether to help people or enslave them. Without ethics capitalism leads to evil actions by greedy people. Debt is a capitalist structure.
Yumy Odom - Bro. Muhammad Rasheed, that definition you site is "capitalism" in an idealistic vacuum. That has never existed! YOU, I and many others would be millionaires if that were true! #1 - Truish; #2 - Not for the individual, generally, but perhaps for the "firm;" #3 - Has never been true; and #4 - Somewhat, depending on where... The plethora of "Black Wall Streets" in the USA submitted as evidence...
Muhammad Rasheed - Joe Lovece wrote: “Capitalism is an economic system designed to generate profits.”
There are lots of systems that are designed to generate profits. Even communistic systems do that. The part about capitalism that makes it special is enabling individuals to own the profit-generating means of production and compete with each other in the markets.
Joe Lovece wrote: “Whatever you use the profits for is your business, whether to help people or enslave them.”
No, it’s what generated the profits that is your business. What you use the profits for is up to your individual choice. You can add them back into your business if you like.
Joe Lovece wrote: “Without ethics capitalism leads to evil actions by greedy people.”
It’s not a matter of not having ethics, but bringing foul ethics to the table. If you are a foul jackass, then that’s the kind of businessman you will be, and the opposite way, too. Blaming capitalism is like blaming the highway when a motorist decides to run into a family.
Joe Lovece wrote: “Debt is a capitalist structure.”
Our specific debt culture is controlled by a banking cartel that has no competition. That’s 100% the opposite of a capitalistic structure.
Joe Lovece - Saying establishing monopolies is not capitalism is like saying fish don't swim. Without government regulation, greedy capitalists will always suck the money out of the system and create slavery, poverty and debt. It is inevitable in capitalism. That is why we have government regulations, because unbridled capitalism must inevitably lead to ruin.
Muhammad Rasheed - Yumy Odom wrote: “Bro. Muhammad Rasheed, that definition you site is ‘capitalism’ in an idealistic vacuum.”
No, that’s what it actually is. You want to add stuff that vilifies it based on doctrinal misinformation.
Yumy Odom wrote: “That has never existed!”
That’s not true. That’s what people say when they don’t really know what it is or how it actually functions. The Federal government just prevented the Internet providers from forming a new cartel to stifle that market, and the effort was a success. The free market of the Internet highway is now a classic capitalistic system, and you are free to create an Internet business of your choosing, and freely compete with other Internet businesses if you wish. What kind of person you are when you do it is irrelevant. The same is true of the cell phone companies. They also attempted to form a cartel to stifle new competition, but the Obama Administration prevented it, and thus that market is now a classic capitalistic system.
Yumy Odom wrote: “YOU, I and many others would be millionaires if that were true! #1 - Truish;”
You are 100% free to start-up a cell phone and/or Internet provider business if you like. Or a health care provider company, too, since the Affordable Care Act also broke up that long-standing cartel. Now you can freely enter that field with your own start-up with nothing preventing you from competing directly with the big dogs. Nothing is keeping you from being a millionaire in those fields but you. Literally.
Yumy Odom wrote: “#2 - Not for the individual, generally, but perhaps for the ‘firm;’"
I’m a capitalist, and I am a sole proprietor, not a firm. So is the family down the street selling their chicken dinners to the members of their mosque/church.
Yumy Odom wrote: “#3 - Has never been true;”
You don’t know enough about this topic, Yumy.
Yumy Odom wrote: “and #4 - Somewhat, depending on where... The plethora of "Black Wall Streets" in the USA submitted as evidence...”
Citing examples of when capitalism is stifled as evidence of capitalism in practice is only a demonstration of misinformation.
Muhammad Rasheed - Joe Lovece wrote: “Saying establishing monopolies is not capitalism is like saying fish don't swim.”
My people, my people.
The life blood of capitalism is the Free Market. Without it, and the competition between businesses that it provides, there is no capitalism. The monopoly is when a business prevents other companies from doing business in a particular industry or sector; a cartel is when a group of business agrees to share an industry and together prevent new businesses from competing. When they do this, the Free Market is plugged up and it is no longer capitalism, it is now “corporatism.” That is the face of your true enemy. Capitalism is your friend, and the secret to your own economic power bloc. Corporatism is the enemy that has prevented you from entering certain fields for yourself (Like the Korean business cartel preventing you from competing on an equal market in black hair care, for example). NO one wants you competing with them in business on that level… do you think they WANT you to have another Black Wall Street? No way. That’s why they’ve been feeding you that foolishness that capitalism is your enemy. And unfortunately you bought into it. For generations now. I have no illusions that some guy on Facebook is going to cure you of that long-time indoctrination though. But capitalism really is exactly what my people need. It always has been. Once upon a time you knew that.
Joe Lovece wrote: “Without government regulation, greedy capitalists will always suck the money out of the system and create slavery, poverty and debt. It is inevitable in capitalism. That is why we have government regulations, because unbridled capitalism must inevitably lead to ruin.”
Again you are blaming capitalism, but the problem is the unscrupulous individual with a criminal mind. HE’S the problem, and why laws/regulations are needed. Do you expect the family down the street to eventually start throwing their neighbors into slavery once they make a certain amount in chicken dinner sales per month?
Joe Lovece - History shows us what happens when capitalism is not restrained. Blame individuals if you like, but we're talking about macro behavior, and on a macro level free markets always lead to slavery, poverty and debt.
Muhammad Rasheed - Joe, I have little patience for people that have convinced themselves that systems somehow have a life outside of the humans that are needed to run them. It's crazy to me.
Muhammad Rasheed - In fact, I'm sure it's some form of batshit paganism.
Joe Lovece - Systems do have a life of their own. Take the justice system for example. Laws and procedures must be followed equally and across the board. Everything must be done a certain way or a procedure cannot move forward. One person's opinion is irrelevant. For example, most people thought the Clinton Impeachment trial was ridiculous, but it was legal and had to be carried out. Capitalism is only as good as humans, and in human hands, unbridled capitalism leads to misery.
Muhammad Rasheed - Joe Lovece wrote: “Systems do have a life of their own. Take the justice system for example.”
Yes, let’s. Pull away all the humans, and will the gavel strike the podium all on its own? Who with prosecute, who will defend, if there are no humans around to perform the roles needed to make the system function?
Joe Lovece wrote: “Laws and procedures must be followed equally and across the board. Everything must be done a certain way or a procedure cannot move forward.”
Of course. And why? Because structure and order are needed for civilization to work. The criminal element always seeks to circumvent the laws, and it is he specifically that must be guarded against.
Joe Lovece wrote: “Capitalism is only as good as humans, and in human hands, unbridled capitalism leads to misery.”
The first half of that statement made perfect sense, and the last half went off into La-La Land again.
“Capitalism is only as good as humans, and in the hands of unscrupulous, morally bankrupt humans, capitalism will collapse.”
That’s better. Now it actually makes sense.
Joe Lovece - It makes perfect sense historically. Since there are, and always will be, too many morally bankrupt humans, capitalism is like an unguarded hen house that will be used to create misery to their benefit. Is your point that you are against regulation of the market? That led to our bank meltdown.
Joe Lovece - Also, you are coming very close to insulting me, and you don't want to do that.
Muhammad Rasheed - Joe Lovece wrote: “It makes perfect sense historically.”
No. When the system has been thoroughly sabotaged to no longer function as that system at all, it doesn’t make a lick of sense to continue to refer to it as that system, let alone vilify the system it no longer functions as.
Joe Lovece wrote: “Since there are, and always will be, too many morally bankrupt humans, capitalism is like an unguarded hen house that will be used to create misery to their benefit.”
lol The government’s job is to protect the integrity of the capitalistic structure. Those very morally bankrupt humans spend all of their greedy time trying to figure out the best way to make it not be a capitalistic society to their selfish benefit. Attacking capitalism itself is 100% wrong when it is actually the victim.
Joe Lovece wrote: “Is your point that you are against regulation of the market?”
Regulation of the Free Market is what Obama demonstrated in the Internet provider/cell phone examples mentioned above.
Joe Lovece wrote: “That led to our bank meltdown.”
There is NO free market in the finance game, consequently there is NO capitalism in it either. That is a cartel controlled industry, in partnership with the US government. Nothing about that system is capitalism. That relationship is directly responsible for the continuous recessions, bubbles, meltdowns, etc.
Joe Lovece - You don't have to keep repeating you point. I understand it. But I'm talking practical and you're talking theoretical. So do you agree that we need government regulation to stop the morally bankrupt humans?
Muhammad Rasheed - Joe Lovece wrote: "Also, you are coming very close to insulting me, and you don't want to do that."
Honestly you're insulting yourself by not actually educating yourself on this topic. You don't want to continue in that state.
Muhammad Rasheed - Joe, NOTHING you've said was practical. How is it practical to vilify a system that was directly sabotaged not to work anymore for the benefit of a few???
Muhammad Rasheed - ARGH!!!
Muhammad Rasheed - THIS right here is the barrier preventing my people from economic empowerment!
Joe Lovece - I'm insulting myself. I think you have crossed a line. Now look who's morally bankrupt. You actually did insult me earlier ("lala land") but I let it slide because I don't want a fuss. You want to have a discussion keep the editorializing out of it. You want to disagree with me fine, but be civil. And you contradict yourself. You admit that the system was never able to work as it should. In other, the theory of capitalism, not the actual, practical application which led to slavery, etc.
Muhammad Rasheed - Joe Lovece wrote: “I'm insulting myself.”
I pray that one day you may actually educate yourself on this topic, and look back on discussions like this and see what you actually sounded like to your future enlightened self.
Joe Lovece wrote: “I think you have crossed a line. Now look who's morally bankrupt. You actually did insult me earlier ("lala land") but I let it slide because I don't want a fuss. You want to have a discussion keep the editorializing out of it.”
Don’t pretend you have any power over me, Joe. I will type whatever I want. I will respond in whatever way I see fit. If you don’t like how I respond, then stop talking to me. Easy. If you keep talking to me then I’ll know you actually like it.
Joe Lovece wrote: “And you contradict yourself. You admit that the system was never able to work as it should.”
The system is designed to run by humans, just like every single system we develop. If the humans do not protect it from the criminal element, then it won’t function any more after it is sabotaged and destroyed. Continuing to refer to the now devastated system as “capitalism” when it no longer functions as such is ignorant.
Joe Lovece wrote: “In other, the theory of capitalism, not the actual, practical application which led to slavery, etc.”
It didn’t lead to slavery. People decided to buy/sell slaves in a market that supported it. When it was made illegal and checked, they could no longer do that business. Capitalism was not the bad guy in that scenario, it was the individuals stealing, buying and selling people who were the bad guys.
Joe Lovece - Type whatever you like, huh? So it's OK for you to insult me? What is your problem?
Muhammad Rasheed - You are the one deciding to be sensitive.
Muhammad Rasheed - You want to talk about a subject you need to actually learn about, and then have the nerve to be thin-skinned?
Muhammad Rasheed - Joe Lovece wrote: "Type whatever you like, huh?"
Yes. If you lot can type drivel like "capitalism led to slavery," then I can certainly type the counter to it.
Joe Lovece - You're the second guy today that insulted me without provocation instead of having a civil discussion and refused to own up to it. You're a capitalist all right. You don't know me, you don't know what I know. Disagree all you want, but if you're going to insult me than fuck off.
Muhammad Rasheed - It was actually more fun before you decided to get extra sensitive. I don't know where to put that really. Maybe you started to see how ignorant you were sounding, and this is your way of backing out of the discussion...?
Muhammad Rasheed - What are you? 12?
Joe Lovece - What part of fuck off don't you understand. You think that if I defend myself from attack that makes me childish. You're the child for not having an adult discussion in the first place.
Muhammad Rasheed - You're the child for holding on to ignorant nonsense as if it was truth. Please stop doing that.
Joe Lovece - Another insult. Classy. Are you one of those Ayn Rand assholes?
Muhammad Rasheed - No. I hate her.
Muhammad Rasheed - Why do you ask?
Muhammad Rasheed - Now you have me trying to process the idea if I don't vilify capitalism for something that it is not, then I must be into that Ayn Rand wench?
Muhammad Rasheed - lol
Muhammad Rasheed - Really, how did you come up with that?
Muhammad Rasheed - Actually I REALLY want to ask what the source is for this treating capitalism as the bad guy mess, so I can finally track it down to its lair and beat the shit out of it like Joe Pesci, but it probably is coming from that Marxist bullshit.
Muhammad Rasheed - I'm not really mad at you, Joe. I apologize for going overboard, but this is an old pet peeve of mine. It's not personal. I know this is a hard up hill battle to free my folk from this craziness. Doesn't have anything to do with you.
Muhammad Rasheed - The plutocratic 1% hate capitalism because they hate competition for the wealth they hoard. The very last thing they want is competition from YOU. I fully expect them to help you win this painfully misguided war against capitalism you wage, and it will be a dark day indeed.
I advise you in all seriousness to let go of this idea you have about it, embrace it instead, and grow your businesses, working together to have a strong black economic power bloc. Please do not let the bad guys win. Capitalism is NOT your enemy. Please believe me.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale - M rah stop trollin. Also its amazing people defend capitalism like its synonymous with freedom when the biggest thing working against freedom today is big financial intrest. Racism would be half as bad if not for capitalism. All the incentives are in the wrong places
Muhammad Rasheed - I'm am not "trolling." You are part of a sub-demographic that has been generationally vilifying capitalism without cause. Tell me where you and Yumy are getting this info from. Can you even tell me? Why are you so sure that what you think you know about this topic is accurate? Even Joe gave himself away when he said, "Well, that's the theory of it, but the practical...!" and then immediately started saying stuff about this field that literally was technically untrue. This is a biased doctrine that you three have blind faith is true, while you hold no certain knowledge. Tell me where you are getting this stuff.
The "financial interests" LITERALLY work outside of the grid of capitalism. They used to work inside of capitalism, back before their partnership with the government began in 1913, but now they function as their own separate entity, that makes up its own closed-walled rules, in a classic cartel. There is ZERO competition with the Federal Reserve, therefore there is ZERO capitalism involved.
Everything you know about this topic is wrong. Stop calling me a damn troll.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale - well its trolling because with joe your actual intelligent conversation devolve into you calling him a baby.
I think you want to be academic about capitalism and your not acknowledging the realities.
the truth is everything we are talking about is theory vs. practice and practicality and more theory.
capitalism took power from lords, for people the problem is that just started a race to the top. there was no people incentive. which is why we have robber barons, unions, pollution, slavery and the fight continues today for, livable wages, fair housing and a whole host of things that would improve lives but not pickets and because of such do not get funded or enacted.
nothing i know bout this topic is wrong. i'm not the greatest with dates but i know where it came from and how it works. and it doesn't take a genius to look at current and past events and see its not panning out the way people thought, or it is for the few and that was all part of it to begin with. essentially capitalism has resulted in a power shift but the same status exist. rich with the ability to run things and poor working to live with their rights stomped on daily.
Drew G Watson - someone has been reading a bit too much of the end of history HAHAHA
Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “well its trolling because with joe your actual intelligent conversation devolve into you calling him a baby.”
I apologized for letting my frustration with butting my head against this wall take me over the top, so for you to tell me to “stop trollin’” well after the fact was kind of redundant, don’t you think?
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “I think you want to be academic about capitalism and your not acknowledging the realities.”
No. The truth of the matter is you don’t know about this topic, have been downloaded with a lot of pseudo-militant, semi-marxist nonsense about it, that you inherited from that old NOI talk, and you do not know how it functions. You’re just saying shit that you think is real. It is not.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “the truth is everything we are talking about is theory vs. practice and practicality and more theory.”
You don’t know what parts are theory and which parts are the actual functions of the principles involved, and you reveal it more and more with every new post. Passionate, inflamed militant rhetoric without a solid knowledge base of facts IS childish. That’s what you all are demonstrating in this thread. You have no idea what capitalism actually is and how it functions, but you operate on blind faith that you do based on some inherited doctrine that you don’t even know where you picked it up from.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “...capitalism took power from lords...”
This doesn’t even make sense. You’re subscribing something to it that it doesn’t even do, like it’s a pagan dark god or something. And I’m not supposed to consider something like that to be childish? If you’re so sure, then tell me exactly how capitalism “takes power from lords.” How does it work exactly? Break it down for me.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “...for people the problem is that just started a race to the top.”
So? Capitalism functions on competition. Are you saying competition is inherently bad? Why?
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “...there was no people incentive.”
As a business owner, if your company didn’t have a “people incentive,” it’s because you didn’t want it to have one. It’s YOUR business after-all. What does that have to do with capitalism? Do you think the mom & pop shop in the neighborhood – who are ABSOLUTELY capitalists – don’t have a “people incentive” in their business? You have no idea how capitalism actually fits into reality; you’re just spouting nonsense blind faith doctrine from that poor mindset that thinks capitalism is a magical force that functions outside of human effort. It’s crazy.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “...which is why we have robber barons, unions...”
The robber barons were monopolies, the ENEMY OF CAPITALISM!!! and the unions were one of the tools that gave power to the people to make that relationship between employer/employee better while inside of a broken, anti-capitalist system. As a monopoly with zero competition, the robber baron could rule over the people any way he wanted to, and the union helped keep his power in check, but it never stopped being a monopoly. Once again, everything you know about this topic is wrong.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “...pollution...”
What the hell does pollution have to do with capitalism? Are you somehow equating “capitalism” with “Industrial Revolution smog imagery?” Are you? If this is accurate that I am sensing, then please justify this idea so I’ll know exactly what this is that I am fighting against.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “...slavery...”
I know you all are fond of associating slavery with capitalism because you are programmed to do so, but do you think that there would be no enslaved humans in a communistic society? Everyone working under the all powerful State would be a slave to the handful of elitists that run it, and divvy out the fairly portioned rations you all crave. lol
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “...and the fight continues today for, livable wages...”
The livable wage controversy is directly related to capitalism not being present in those areas. If it was then there wouldn’t be a problem.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “...fair housing...”
Define “fair housing” and explain to me how capitalism keeps us from having it. Go.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “...and a whole host of things that would improve lives but not pickets and because of such do not get funded or enacted.”
“Getting funded” is the giveaway. Capitalism is a competition, a competition between production owners to take advantage of opportunities and provide goods/services to people that there is a market demand for. If there is no demand for it, the people are letting you know with their dollars how they feel about it. If you want to set up a system that provides something to them for free, that they didn’t ask for, nor wish to pay for, then that is your prerogative. Blaming capitalism as to why this isn’t already set up is crazy. Do you!
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “nothing i know bout this topic is wrong.”
EVERYTHING you think you know about this topic is wrong as hell, and it’s embarrassing.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “i'm not the greatest with dates...”
It doesn’t matter. Those would be wrong, too.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “...but i know where it came from and how it works.”
No you don’t. Try me. Where did it come from, and how does it work. Go.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “...and it doesn't take a genius to look at current and past events and see its not panning out the way people thought”
lol What isn’t playing out the way who thought, Mshale?
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “...or it is for the few and that was all part of it to begin with.”
“The few” are the corporatist group of cartels and monopolies that shut down capitalism so no new blood would be able to join that club. You are NOT describing “capitalism” when you bitch about that stuff, and it is embarrassing when you blame it for things that its enemy performs against it.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “...essentially capitalism has resulted in a power shift but the same status exist. rich with the ability to run things and poor working to live with their rights stomped on daily.”
You’re describing the corporatism vs capitalism conflict, see the corporatists abusing the system by sabotaging capitalism, and blaming capitalism for the problem.
And you KEEP doing it.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale - How can you argue robber barons were enemies of capitalism. Many hail them as the men who built this country lol what does that tell you?
You know why clean air act exist. Clean water, fracking, cfcs the ozone layer clear cutting yooo. Im done if you can't see the profit motive in those ABOVE even caring about the planet the live on. Based on a competitive idea that you have to be greedy and get all you can. Insanity.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale - Corporatism lol. How did we get those....
Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “My bad for not sitting next to my computer monitoring troll folks cause you like systems that oppress folks.”
“Oh, mighty dark pagan god of capitalism! Please have mercy and stop oppressing us! Here’s a slave to appease your violent gaze!!”
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “Because it doesn't agree with your world view does not make it pseudo.”
It doesn’t agree with facts, truth, reason, knowledge, understanding, insight, reality. THAT’S what makes it “pseudo.”
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “I don't know much about NOI cept they can fight.”
Their anti-capitalism message from a place of misinformed opinion that they heard from somewhere (probably marxism) has made its way into popular poor black community “deep” talk. That’s why they are still poor.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “I didn't even read that book drew was talking about.”
I don’t even know what he’s talking about.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “I did have econ 101.”
At this point I think that was just a dream you had once.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “I do like history. Before capitalism few men owned the land and means often called lords.”
“Before capitalism,” eh? That’s an interesting comment. What time period was that exactly? Capitalism has been around a very long time. Merchants along the ancient Silk Road practiced it in its pure form. You are obviously referring to something very specific that you are slapping that label on. Explain yourself.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “Hence landlords. Capitalism allows for anyone to participate in theory. Those who have won that game are advancing further and further and at somepoint theres no equality power becomes consolidated in the hands of few.”
The danger is when successful companies attempt to monopolize the market, preventing you from entering it and competing on a fair playing field. When that is allowed to happen it is no longer capitalism, it is then corporatism. Protecting the markets... the way Obama just freed the health care industry with Obamacare breaking up that cartel, is how to protect the system so that the American Dream will actually work, enabling the poor to move up the socio-economic ladder. It is when corporatism is allowed to rule that the poor get poorer and the rich get richer... usually because the corporatist heads are in bed with the politicians who guard their new buddies’ wealth as if it was their own. The corporatists hate capitalism because the more people are freely competing in the markets the less money they make.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “Im saying using competition and greed as the foundations of your nation leads to human abuse.”
Human abuse and greed will exist no matter what. Have you ever met any humans? Huh? Instead of throwing out the system we should be protecting the system from its natural predators.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale - they will but they shouldn't be rewarded! like there is no legal recourse that keeps companies from doing dirt first then waiting for laws and revolts to tell them not too. the whole time lobbying against laws that stand between them and more money regardless of human cost. infact in many equations humans are just capital. thats insane. humanity is important people are important money is bullshit. greed is bullshit. thats why theres no memes or quotes about the greatness of it.
competition is ok, but only when tempered, you can't endlessly compete you can't endlessly grow. capitalism in its practice in the modern world reward the wrong things. i don't think buying and selling or money is inherently wrong, but i think prioritizing capital will lead to more corruption. i think the equation should be reversed lots of socialism a little capitalism.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “How can you argue robber barons were enemies of capitalism.”
The Free Market is the life blood of capitalism, enabling business to compete in the normal supply & demand dance of the economy. Without the Free Market, there literally is no capitalism; the system doesn’t exist without it. This is Econ 101. The robber baron has a monopoly over the industry that is his specialty, preventing others from muscling in on his turf. There is no competition in the robber baron’s territory, thus there is no capitalism. The second he got the chance, and had the power and influence to do so, he shut down capitalism completely to protect his hoards.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “Many hail them as the men who built this country lol what does that tell you?”
That you don’t know what capitalism is or how it functions.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “You know why clean air act exist. Clean water, fracking, cfcs the ozone layer clear cutting yooo. Im done if you can't see the profit motive in those ABOVE even caring about the planet the live on.”
What about it? Tell me how it applies to your argument.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “Based on a competitive idea that you have to be greedy and get all you can. Insanity.”
The mom & pop shop down the street in the neighborhood has been selling those chicken dinners for 50 years, and everyone loves them. They are 100% capitalists. They compete with the Johnsons and the Nash family and everyone has their favorites, but mom & pop’s dinners are hand’s down the best. Last year that got a big order when TD Jakes came through for some special function he threw, and mom & pop blew up, able to expand their business around the city and hire more people. Is this scenario inherently bad just because it is the typical capitalist model? Is it “insane” just because?
Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “they will but they shouldn't be rewarded!”
The people should let their government officials know that there is corporatist corruption happening and they want it stopped immediately. Bitching and complaining from the side while wishing it will magically fix itself won’t solve anything. We all know that the criminal element will always exist among us. They aren’t going anywhere; some people always have that predatory mentally and what to get over on other people for their own selfish gain. It will always be that way. The trick is to be wise and guard our systems from those people. You KNOW they are coming, you KNOW their modus operandi. Your president provided the perfect example in how he guarded the cell phone industry from forming a cartel, and the Internet providers. They saw that shit coming... knew the signs... and stepped in to fight it, and the greedy bad guys had to back the fuck up. THAT’S what regulating the market looks like, and leaves open the door for opportunity, as well as continue to supply the gadgets we like, without some asshole corporation taking over the whole thing, and only supplying what they want us to have, and every other negative that comes with corporatist greed and bullshit. The system is not the problem; the system is vulnerable and you have to guard it from the bad guys.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “...like there is no legal recourse that keeps companies from doing dirt first then waiting for laws and revolts to tell them not too.”
There are laws telling people not to do stuff. But criminal does it anyway because SURPRISE! he’s a criminal. Imagine that?
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “the whole time lobbying against laws that stand between them and more money regardless of human cost. infact in many equations humans are just capital. thats insane. humanity is important people are important money is bullshit. greed is bullshit. thats why theres no memes or quotes about the greatness of it.”
Money is a means to an end, economic freedom is a virtue all of its own. It’s great not having to worry about your bills, or to be able to bless loved ones, and even strangers, with gifts to enable them to get ahead. It’s great to be able to take advantage of investment opportunities whenever they pop up, or to be able to take your family on a trip across the planet at a whim, not being held back by some “boss” figure telling you what you have to do. It’s a blessing to be your own boss, and our American Dream gives us that opportunity, and is worth fighting for and protecting from the very greedy predatory assholes we both hate.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “competition is ok, but only when tempered, you can't endlessly compete you can't endlessly grow. capitalism in its practice in the modern world reward the wrong things. i don't think buying and selling or money is inherently wrong, but i think prioritizing capital will lead to more corruption.”
You’re blaming the system itself for what the predators that take advantage of the system do.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: “i think the equation should be reversed lots of socialism a little capitalism.”
How will that help us? Give me a scenario that will explain how that would function. Use your creative writing powers.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale - I could but I doubt much I say will change your opinion. The question is what equals living well and does capitalism allow it. The values associated with capitalism are destructive. The predators just have a system that works well for them.
Muhammad Rasheed - No, you aren't going to change my opinion coming from an uninformed base. My goal here is to understand why you think the way you think.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale - You keep calling me uninformed clearly I am. I just don't agree.
Muhammad Rasheed - How are you clearly informed when there are terms and concepts you are unaware of, continuously referring to some concepts in ways that they don't fit, etc.? Is that what "informed" looks like to you? If I insisted that scoring a goal in football was called a "home run," would I be informed?
Kamau Mkafele Mshale - I think the way I do because of whhat ive seen pan out and the logical end result of greed. Capitalism is fuled by competition and great regardless of what the definition says or its history. Theres very little to argue there. Or miss understand.
Muhammad Rasheed - "Regardless of what the definition says." That's NOT what informed sounds like.
You've made up your mind about concepts you formulated outside of the scope of study, so that to subscribe traits to certain concepts that don't fit, while not subscribing traits to other concepts that you are 100% unaware exist. That's NOT what informed sounds like.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale - Define police. I bet you could argue the practice isn't as defined
Kamau Mkafele Mshale - I just call em like it is. Dick Cheney - Neocon War Profiteer
Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "Define police. I bet you could argue the practice isn't as defined"
This is a strawman. Your whole point is that the actual definition doesn't matter, only your subjective opinion about the subject that you made up matters.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kamau Mkafele Mshale wrote: "I just call em like it is."
Is this accurate? Is this what you really think? So in your personal, subjective glossary/dictionary, is a capitalist and a war profiteer synonymous? If so, this will go a long way towards finally understanding why you are so misinformed.
Kamau Mkafele Mshale -
Muhammad Rasheed - Explain how this would be considered "capitalism." Because you stuck "bruh" at the end of it?
How is this typical of capitalism?
Kamau Mkafele Mshale - They aren't fracking for fun. That shit is about money owning the means of production and making money. He use his office to better his ability to make money. Sure a communist could be corrupt but you would have to be commie president to pull this shit off. In America this is only news because he was vice pres cause this shit is everyday
Muhammad Rasheed - So because they have a patent on the tech in volved, anyone who wants to compete with Halliburton in this country has to go through the largest fracking corporation in the world. That means that Halliburton has a monopoly on fracking in the US. No one gets to enter that field unless they say so, and if they do say so, your company will absolutely have to share your profits with them as part of the deal to have permission to use that patent.
In other words, since there is no competition, this isn't capitalism. "Bruh."
Muhammad Rasheed - *sighhh*
Kamau Mkafele Mshale - The incentive in capitalism is to beat or control competition
Muhammad Rasheed - No, capitalism IS the competition in the markets. Once the competition stops, then it is no longer capitalism. It's something else.
In a capitalistic society, we should protect the markets so that monopolies/cartels do not form.
Muhammad Rasheed - If you let them form it means you are an anti-capitalist, and an enemy to our way of life.
Muhammad Rasheed - In your misguided attempt to pin all of our wrongs on capitalism itself, the actual problem comes from people like Cheney, who don't give a shit about capitalism, and will gladly choke it off for his own greed. He is NOT a capitalist.
Jason Farmer - I feel like I just walked in on a debate over the ethicality of Sea World's treatment of circus elephants.
Muhammad Rasheed - Hi, Jason. There's a couple of threads going where the central contention is an often preached, but highly-misinformed idea about capitalism that is actually very wrong. People have been vilifying capitalism based only on what they think it is about, but without actually knowing how it functions. In this case, Mshale equated Cheney's "making a profit" through fracking with capitalism itself, but that is actually inaccurate. He is under the opinion that if making a profit is involved at all, then it is by default capitalism. This is not true.
Jason Farmer - Hey, Muhammad. I have my own critiques about capitalism, but I'll let you two battle that one out. I'm just amazed that the conversation ended up where it did. I confess that was in no small part due to Kamau finding a way to lose a winnable argument.
it's not about Halliburton "owning the means of production." They have patents for certain fracking technologies and methods, as do others in the oil and gas industry. The critique to be made of capitalism as it regards fracking is, 1) the influence the private sector has over government, paving the way for the rise of a competitive industry that is harmful to the environment, and 2) that the fracking industry hides behind competition so that they don't have to reveal the contents of the trade secret chemical cocktails they expose to the environment through fracking.
Jason Farmer - That is to say, the fracking industry thrives because fracking companies are able to cite exposure of the chemicals they use as harmful to their ability to compete in the industry. That is precisely the opposite of what was being argued.
Muhammad Rasheed - 1) Traditionally an influence over government doesn't create a competitive industry. That relationship creates a cartel of companies working together to stifle competition. That's the opposite of capitalism.
2) They may hide behind "competition/free market" speak, but if they are monopolizing the industry, and using their political influence to make special deals for the companies directly involved, then again, this is not capitalism at work.
Jason Farmer - They aren't monopolizing the industry. That's the point. The entire industry is getting away with something that should be more regulated (and if it were, likely illegal), because these companies are able to claim that they all have secret sauce that they can't expose without jeopardizing their ability to compete.
Muhammad Rasheed - So every new company that enters claims to have its own secret sauce recipe? Or is everyone using Halliburton's recipe?
Jason Farmer - They're using their own. There may be some overlap here and there, like how Playstations use certain patents Microsoft has a stake in, and Xboxes uses certain patents that Sony has a stake in, but, as in those situations, IF it is happening, it's nothing approaching a monopoly. The patents that are central to these companies ability to make money are the ones they file to keep their cocktails a trade secret.
Jason Farmer - In point of fact, what Cheney did resulted in more companies entering the fracking industry.
Muhammad Rasheed - I see it. This is a capitalist model.
Muhammad Rasheed - According to Wiki, there were two states (Vermont and New York) that have banned fracking.
Jason Farmer - New York placed a moratorium on it. Last I checked, they hadn't come to a final decision. Vermont I'm not sure of.
Muhammad Rasheed - Interesting considering, according to the Investopedia site, the big oil companies are the ones that own the land on which the contractors do the work.
Muhammad Rasheed - The question now is, to return to a point in the earlier argument now that you have won this round, is this fracking industry proof that capitalism is inherently bad? If so, how?
Jason Farmer - I'm more of a Ferris Bueller guy myself. “A person should not believe in ‘isms.’ He should believe in himself." I don't believe any of these "isms" are inherently perfect, at least not in the context of the world as it is. All of them are flawed and only cured by hypocrisy when put to the test.
Muhammad Rasheed - Only God is perfect; no system that we invent is going to be perfect because we aren’t. But we can do the best we can, and in this case, the American capitalist system is the one that currently is an environment that supports our desire to believe in our own gifts and skills. I think we should do a better job of holding our elected officials accountable in protecting that system from its traditional enemy instead of vilifying the system itself. Especially for the African-American.
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