Tony Steed – [shared link]
I'm all for it. Religion is the bane of humanity.. I'm not saying you shouldn't believe in something. But when your beliefs stop progress then it's bad. If your faith in the invisible makes you feel better have at it. But don't try to influence my and others lives with your belief systems not based on facts.
Muhammad Rasheed - Dude...
Muhammad Rasheed - Quit.
Tony Steed - Where am I lying? Religion is the bane of our species..
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: "Where am I lying?"
Let us count the ways...
Tony Steed wrote: "Religion is the bane of our species."
This is a lie. Religion is where all of our ethics and morals came from and is what we built our civilizations around from the very beginning of our species.
Tony Steed wrote: "Religion is the bane of humanity.."
This is the same lie as above. Somewhere along the course of your life, you personally felt you didn't like religion, and made the decision to know as little about it as possible while spewing vitriol from the sidelines based on that ignorance. Somewhere in your head you seem to actually think that your
Tourette syndrome-like comments "Religion is the bane of our species!" is expressing a truth, when it absolutely isn't.
Tourette syndrome-like comments "Religion is the bane of our species!" is expressing a truth, when it absolutely isn't.
Tony Steed wrote: "I'm not saying you shouldn't believe in something."
lol Tony, first you have to learn the subject and be able to speak upon it from a place of informed knowledge based on REAL facts, not subjective bias, in order for your opinion to have at least a tiny bit of value. We've established definitively from a few of these dialogues that your opinion holds zero value regarding religion because, like Bill, you've proven not to know a single thing about it. Not one thing. Yet you've both jumped on this new atheist fad using the very same herd mentality of ignorance on the topic that you directed towards that circumcision clip earlier.
Tony Steed wrote: "But when your beliefs stop progress then it's bad."
Another lie. Give me an example of how you believe religion is stopping progress so I may demonstrate the depths of your ignorance in front of all your friends & family on Facebook. Do it.
Tony Steed wrote: "If your faith in the invisible makes you feel better have at it."
Faith in the invisible, the unseen, is our humanity. It's what will save us. We wouldn't be here without it.
Tony Steed wrote: "But don't try to influence my and others lives with your belief systems not based on facts."
Please provide a single fact that proves the lies I've pointed about above are actually not lies. Your own faith-based belief that "Religion is the bane of our species!" is what is holding progress back. Ask me how.
Bill Jonke - I'm a product of a project engineer. Logic
has taken over. Religion is illogical. It makes no sense to me. What's been
proven makes sense to me, and no part of religion has EVER been proven. The
decline and the desperation that's screaming from religion these days is
immeasurable because by some strange streak of fate, people are starting to
think. Thinking isn't as easy as some people would believe, but have something
or someone else think for you, real or imagined, leads to your ruin as a human
being.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bill Jonke wrote: “I'm a product of
a project engineer.”
Does that magically mean you have the ability to speak on what religion is or isn’t without ever studying what the faiths are actually about? Did they pass out bibles on the first day of engineering school?
Bill Jonke wrote: “Logic has taken over.”
Do you still believe that an engineering degree grants you special insight into religion? Is this a demonstration of your version of “logic?”
Bill Jonke wrote: “Religion is illogical.”
In what way?
Bill Jonke wrote: “It makes no sense to me.”
So because of your own intellectual weaknesses, it means it is illogical? Is this more of your “logic” at work?
Bill Jonke wrote: “What's been proven makes sense to me…”
Does it?
Bill Jonke wrote: “…and no part of religion has EVER been proven.”
What part of religion is supposed to be proven? You recognize that they are called “faiths” for a reason, yes? Belief is the activating principle in world religion per the instructions within the sacred texts, yet you are rejecting them because they operate on that foundational principle. Judging fields based on concepts they were never intended to function by seems to be another tenet of your version of “logic.” And this seems reasonable to you?
Bill Jonke wrote: “The decline and the desperation that's screaming from religion these days…”
What does that even mean? This sounds suspiciously faith-based. Show me proofs of this “screaming.” I’m to believe that project engineers operate on proof, right? Show me your proofs if you are truthful.
Bill Jonke wrote: “…is immeasurable because by some strange streak of fate, people are starting to think.”
Not in this thread they haven’t. You and Tony like to spew a lot of faith-based anti-religion doctrine you apparently make up on the fly though. I’m looking forward to you providing some facts that back up your claims so you can finally put me in my place.
Bill Jonke wrote: “Thinking isn't as easy as some people would believe…”
I’m genuinely not surprised to hear you confess this. The first step in curing a deficiency is to admit one possesses it. Maybe now we can get you the help you need, Bill. Good show.
Bill Jonke wrote: “…but have something or someone else think for you, real or imagined, leads to your ruin as a human being.”
Right now, you and Tony have jumped on the “Down with religion!” band wagon without a single fact among you to support your anti-religious claims. Whenever I provide any measure of pushback, you scamper off like Godless rodents (the worst kind of rodent, of course). What do you have for me today?
Throw down your rod.
Tony Steed - I don't need to throw down a rod. Since Morality is seen within the animal world without books. Religion is used by people to feel good about things unseen, and their place in the world. Most of us do not need such things. I am a human being. I treat other humans fairly, sometimes I treat them douchy, because I cam human. Your books of myth and fables, where Gods create imperfection, yet expect perfection are false parables.
Tony Steed - Your gods take human women, and impregnate them with themselves, then give birth to themselves, to sacrifice themselves, for something they did. That's a great moral play there.
Tony Steed - Your Gods are petty and impetulant. they demand worship, yet offer nothing in return except promises and rules to live by. Yet the rules they live by and expect us to live by are full of discrepancies, which people compile into old and new testaments from their mythical beings. Which people who follow the religions, like I used to, pick and choose which rules they wish to follow. You can despise the gay, yet on sunday you can go to church, then eat the shellfish afterwards. You can kill the blasphemer, yet wear multi fabriced items. You can claim the kingdom, yet shave your beards. You tell others the immorality of themselves, yet work on the sabbath.
Tony Steed - The promise of the church is designed to control the highest number with promises of greatness not on the world they live in but the world of tomorrow. Yet they fall into the trap of thinking themselves higher than their fellow man. You have men of the Church claim education and science, yet tell you to not question your Gods, because they work in mysterious ways. The church promoted education not among the masses but among themselves, it was a good thing that men and women of science and higher morality chose to rebel against the church, and chart a better course for humanity.
Tony Steed - Religion offers help to those in need as long as they accept the gods. As a human I offer help, because it's the right thing, and i care for no reward, if I am to be punished for not bowing to the gods, so be it. They do not deserve to be worshiped for the plagues they unleash on man and their creations. They can create, but every creators secondary job is to maintain. The creators write manuals for living that are NOT up to interpretation, and not up to being mistaken into old and new. The creators give knowledge to the people to maintain the creation, and then check in to make sure things run smooth. The gods of humans, THEIR creations, are surprisingly absent throughout history. Humanity has existed for 250 thousand years in our modern form, yet where were the gods to help us with their books and teachings?
Tony Steed - The gods of man deserve no worship, people should pray for others after helping others. Praying for the gods to do something is lazy, and makes people less capable of helping their fellows without care for heavenly rewards.
Tony Steed - The Gods, EVERY SINGLE ONE of them deserve nothing, because they do not exist. If they do exist mankind should not worship them, because the Gods have failed for 250 thousand years.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: "I don't need to throw down a rod."
You do if you claim to stand on the side of truth & facts. Proclaiming faith-based subjective opinion based on ignorant dislike is to perform what you say you condemn in your ideological rivals.
Tony Steed - @Muhammad Rasheed… You asked where has religion stopped progress. You must be blind to how islam went from being a religion that made amazing headways in the Science of astronomy, to what it''s become today. If religions were so progressive, why are there so many factions? if Religions don't impede progress, why did they burn bruno at the stake? Why did they kill Joan de arc a progressive and devout woman of her time, who led armies? Why did they put galileo under house arrest? Why the Inquisition which has just ended, but continues in christian countries? Science and Religion by Mark Humphrys (Irish. Atheist. Liberal-right. Anti-jihad. Pro-West. Pro-Israel.)
Tony Steed - I'll never claim truth, I will stand by facts. Truths are mutable, facts change as the evidence does. Truths are whatever people want them to be.
Muhammad Rasheed - lol You're literally making my argument for me and can't see it.
This is going to be fun...
Muhammad Rasheed - smh
Tony Steed - One thing about "debating" with the religious, is that they always see themselves winning. When I was a Christian, I was the same way. Thankfully I woke up.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: “Since Morality is seen within the animal world without books.”
Animals function primarily on instinct, while humans function primarily on learned behavior. I see you use the same “logic” that Bill dips into.
Tony Steed wrote: “Religion is used by people to feel good about things unseen, and their place in the world.”
That’s not the reason I subscribe to religion, so what are you basing this claim upon? You said you have no factual rods to throw down to prove any tenet of your faith-based anti-religion stance, so that would be a big fat “nothing,” right?
Tony Steed wrote: “Most of us do not need such things.”
How ironic. You proclaim a strawman, and then smugly state how people don’t need the concept you literally made up and then proclaimed as a truth. Interesting.
Tony Steed wrote: “I am a human being. I treat other humans fairly, sometimes I treat them douchy, because I cam human. Your books of myth and fables, where Gods create imperfection, yet expect perfection are false parables.”
Yet another strawman. In His scriptures, God gifted us with the concept of “repentance.” I would hardly think it would be needed if He expected “perfection.” Experience has shown that you walk around with a whole bag full of equal nonsense that you pretend comes from religion, a trait both you and Bill share. I expect nothing less from you.
Tony Steed - Where was Gods morality, for 248 thousand years?
Muhammad Rasheed - ^What does that mean? What are you asking?
Bill Jonke - So how many times has faith been broken? I don't have faith in anything! It usually comes back to bite you in the ass. My father would say "Take things as they come." I do interpret that as "drop the faith and do the best you can with what's handed to you!" He'd agree with me on that!
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: “Your gods take human women, and impregnate them with themselves, then give birth to themselves, to sacrifice themselves, for something they did. That's a great moral play there.”
There’s too much Pauline Christian doctrine reference here for me to defend, which I cannot do. You are woefully ignorant on the Islamic stance of the immaculate conception so I cannot debate it with you. Naturally I don’t expect you to research it so you can catch up.
Tony Steed - Actually I'm reading it now...
Muhammad Rasheed - SURRRRRE you are.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: “Your Gods are petty and impetulant. they demand worship, yet offer nothing in return except promises and rules to live by.”
Do you not breathe, walk about, and have the freedom to blaspheme the God that made you at your discretion? Has He not provided the bounty of the earth to sate your ungrateful gullet? Has He not offered Eternal Bliss in exchange for obeying Him?
Then what in the WORLD can you possibly be talking about?
Tony Steed wrote: “Yet the rules they live by and expect us to live by are full of discrepancies…”
Like what? And how could you possibly be qualified to discern between a discrepancy and the truth of the Lord?
Tony Steed wrote: “…which people compile into old and new testaments from their mythical beings. Which people who follow the religions, like I used to…”
Please stop pretending that you used to actually follow the commands of God. We already had that discussion and you admitted you had no idea what the book said; you didn’t even read it.
Tony Steed wrote: “…pick and choose which rules they wish to follow.”
You admit that humans choose not to do what God commands, yet somehow blame the religion for the deficiency? And this is logical to you?
Tony Steed wrote: “You can despise the gay, yet on sunday you can go to church, then eat the shellfish afterwards. You can kill the blasphemer, yet wear multi fabriced items. You can claim the kingdom, yet shave your beards. You tell others the immorality of themselves, yet work on the sabbath.”
Obviously this critique is a reference to the difference between the old and new Testaments of the Christian faith. I’ll take up this challenge for them.
What did Jesus tell the children of Israel (since you claim you used to be a Christian) if they would follow him and accept his message? Tell me if you know.
Tony Steed - It means, why did the Gods wait 248 thousand years to write terrible books on how to live, and what they want us to do
Tony Steed - Jesus Christ in Islam
Tony Steed - I like knowing what I speak..
Muhammad Rasheed - Apparently not, Tony.
Tony Steed wrote: "It means, why did the Gods wait 248 thousand years to write terrible books on how to live, and what they want us to do"
Who said God waited thousands of years before He wrote His books? Based on what? Is that what scripture says?
Tony Steed - And mention in the Book (the Qur’an, O Muhammad, the story of) Maryam, when she withdrew in seclusion from her family to a place facing east. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Ruh (the angel Gabriel), and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects. She said: ‘Verily, I seek refuge with the Most Gracious (Allah) from you, if you do fear Allah.’ (The angel) said: ‘I am only a messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son.’ She said: ‘How can I have a son, when no man hath touched me, nor am I unchaste?’ He said: ‘So (it will be), your Lord said "That is easy for Me (Allah): And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (Allah), and it is a matter (already) decreed (by Allah)." ‘ " Qur’an – Surat Maryam 19: 16-21
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: “The promise of the church is designed […] and chart a better course for humanity.”
We already talked about this and you were conspicuously silent. What does the bureaucratic institutions of men and their power struggles, have to do with the tenets of the faith of God and His commands for your life. Everyone with a lick of sense (and I’m not even Christian) recognize the difference between “The Church” and “Christianity,” so why can’t you, O Former Christian?
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: "And mention in the Book (the Qur’an, O Muhammad, the story of) Maryam..."
I certainly hope you plan to explain how that verse supports your point.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: “Religion offers help to those in need as long as they accept the gods.”
Religion offers salvation from the weaknesses in humanity.
Tony Steed wrote: “As a human I offer help…”
Do you offer salvation?
Tony Steed wrote: “…because it's the right thing…”
How do you know that helping people is the right thing? Based on what?
Tony Steed wrote: “…and i care for no reward, if I am to be punished for not bowing to the gods, so be it.”
It is a certainty. Die in your current state of unbelief and you are doomed.
Tony Steed wrote: “They do not deserve to be worshiped for the plagues they unleash on man and their creations.”
Humans die. lol Does it matter how? Humans live this life to prepare themselves for the Life Eternal. Plagues, storms, etc. demonstrate how none of us have any control over the hour of our deaths… it can come at anytime. It would behoove us to make sure our lives are in order so we can be alright on the Otherside. This is part of the warning of God’s message that you are oddly unaware of. Your “plagues they unleash” concept is considerably at odds with the actual message of God and lacks insight on any level.
Tony Steed wrote: “They can create, but every creators secondary job is to maintain. The creators write manuals for living that are NOT up to interpretation, and not up to being mistaken into old and new.”
You’ve proven once again to have NO IDEA what’s in His book, so why do you think you are qualified to speak on how it can be interpreted, etc.? The message has endured for thousands of years; do you recognize this? The problem you think you see is one of statistics and is already built into the Plan. Ask me how.
Tony Steed wrote: “The creators give knowledge to the people to maintain the creation, and then check in to make sure things run smooth. The gods of humans, THEIR creations, are surprisingly absent throughout history. Humanity has existed for 250 thousand years in our modern form, yet where were the gods to help us with their books and teachings?”
Everything you’d said here is part of your personal belief’s lack of understanding about the point of religion, and once again fails to line up to the actual Abrahamic religions & Scripture. I’m looking forward to seeing how you plan to justify these comments. Naturally I’ve heard them before from equally ignorant atheists who have a habit of simply making up what they think religion is about and them arguing against it as if it is true in a classic strawman. This is your opportunity to provide facts to support these. Anytime you’re ready.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: “The gods of man deserve no worship…”
By definition God deserves worship. He created everything you hold dear and made life possible.
Tony Steed wrote: “…people should pray for others after helping others.”
What?
Tony Steed wrote: “Praying for the gods to do something is lazy, and makes people less capable of helping their fellows without care for heavenly rewards.”
You just demonstrated that you have NO IDEA what the point of prayer is. None. Tony how can you critique something, and have such a hard-hearted stance against a field of study, when you don’t know anything about it at all? How do you justify this? Tell me.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: “The Gods, EVERY SINGLE ONE of them…”
There is only One God. Does your ignorance know no limits?
Tony Steed wrote: “…deserve nothing, because they do not exist.”
The One God’s enduring message, guiding mankind for lo these thousands of years, says otherwise. How long do you believe your words will last? Hm?
Tony Steed wrote: “If they do exist mankind should not worship them, because the Gods have failed for 250 thousand years.”
lol Failed at what exactly? Tell me.
Tony Steed - Funny thing is every single argument is based on your personal belief based on 1 book, by sheep herders 2000 years ago. I grant you that's some amazing faith.. I also do love how you keep telling me I know nothing.. it's pretty amazing. But all good. Arguing the facts of the bible, or the Koran, using only those books as evidence is a poor argument. Because every other book outside of the books of the religious, ALL religions. Your God is no more real than the Gods of Mthraism, Egyptian Pantheon, The Greeks, the Hellenists, the pagans, the wiccans (of whom I follow intensely), the jews, the christians, or anyones. There's no there there. Praying to the Gods for help with a task, is like asking the wall to open the door for you. When you can simply do it yourself.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: "Funny thing is every single argument is based on your personal belief..."
And yet you've opted not to provide any actual facts for your own faith-based claims. Curious.
I keep saying "Ask me how." lol Are you scared to?
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: “@Muhammad Rasheed… You asked where has religion stopped progress. You must be blind to how islam went from being a religion that made amazing headways in the Science of astronomy, to what it''s become today.”
lol So you admit to me that during the fresh bloom of its purity, the religion of Al-Islam led the world in progress, but became less so as it became bogged down with bureaucratic institutionalism over time. In other words, the religion was great for progress the closer it was to its original holy/divine source, but became less so as mankind focus less on the Source and more on the institution of “The Church.” You type this at me, yet fail to see the significance? And in the very same thread you choose to blaspheme that Source and build up evidence against yourself in the face of that which you mock? lol
Tony Steed wrote: “If religions were so progressive, why are there so many factions?”
This is a question? The most perfect system in the universe won’t work if people don’t follow it but only pretend to. You know this better than anyone, Mr. Former Christian who couldn’t tell me basic shit about the bible.
Tony Steed wrote: “…if Religions don't impede progress, why did they burn bruno at the stake?”
Explain what that had to do with the commands of God in His religion and you will answer it for yourself.
Tony Steed wrote: “Why did they kill Joan de arc a progressive and devout woman of her time, who led armies?”
Were the people who killed her following God’s commands? How come the historians know why they killed her but you don’t? lol Why are you even bringing up her name since you are ignorant of the story? She was killed because those leaders feared her power over the people and her potential influence. Why are you blaming that on “religion?”
Tony Steed wrote: “Why did they put galileo under house arrest?”
Again, what did that have to do with the religion of God? Can you find the verse in His book that commanded them to do so? Do it.
Tony Steed wrote: “Why the Inquisition which has just ended, but continues in Christian”
Why are you bringing up the Inquisition? The Spanish Inquisition was a royal decree formed to persecute those hypocrites of the state who didn’t comply with the royal command for everyone to convert. This came from Isabella & Ferdinand, not from the church. Why are you bringing this up when you are not aware of these facts?
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: “I also do love how you keep telling me I know nothing.. it's pretty amazing.”
Stop continuously proclaiming fallacies and untruths about the religions while pretending they are truths found in the religions and I promise to stop doing it. Deal?
Tony Steed wrote: “But all good.”
*shrug* It’s up to you.
Tony Steed wrote: “Arguing the facts of the bible, or the Koran, using only those books as evidence is a poor argument. Because every other book outside of the books of the religious, ALL religions”
To be clear, when you argue concepts that are at odds with what the book actually teaches (remember your “plagues they unleash” comment?) naturally I would use the instructions within the book to refute your nonsense. What you just did there is called classic misdirection, while failing to provide anything at all to support your own claims outside of your subjective bias.
Tony Steed wrote: “Your God is no more real than the Gods of the jews, the Christians”
Do you understand the significance of referring to these three as “Abrahamic?” What does that mean in YOUR world, Tony?
Tony Steed wrote: “Mthraism, Egyptian Pantheon, The Greeks, the Hellenists, the pagans, the wiccans (of whom I follow intensely), , or anyones. There's no there there.”
There is only one message from One God – one that has endured throughout the ages – in which He has addressed mankind, explained who He was, explained that all other deities are but fictions of rebellious men, and instructed mankind in what He wants from us so we may prosper. Not a single one of those other deities have a message that challenges this message from the One God. In fact, all of the ones you’ve named are officially “dead religions” with all that may imply. Logically, what does that mean in YOUR world, Tony?
Tony Steed wrote: “Praying to the Gods for help with a task, is like asking the wall to open the door for you. When you can simply do it yourself.”
When an atheist, who has no idea what the purpose of prayer is, attempts to give an analogy demonstrating his opinion of the concept, it has the equivalent value as work boots on a tape worm.
Tony Steed wrote: "One thing about 'debating' with the religious, is that they always see themselves winning. When I was a Christian, I was the same way. Thankfully I woke up."
Naturally I assume you now think you are losing. lol
Tony Steed - lol Actually I don't think i'm losing. Just offering that Gods, yours nor anyone elses exists. They affect the humans that believe in them in amazing ways, and mostly to the detriment of those who believe otherwise, and those who don't believe. The People of the Gods, have more influence, than the Gods themselves. Yours or anyone else.
Does that magically mean you have the ability to speak on what religion is or isn’t without ever studying what the faiths are actually about? Did they pass out bibles on the first day of engineering school?
Bill Jonke wrote: “Logic has taken over.”
Do you still believe that an engineering degree grants you special insight into religion? Is this a demonstration of your version of “logic?”
Bill Jonke wrote: “Religion is illogical.”
In what way?
Bill Jonke wrote: “It makes no sense to me.”
So because of your own intellectual weaknesses, it means it is illogical? Is this more of your “logic” at work?
Bill Jonke wrote: “What's been proven makes sense to me…”
Does it?
Bill Jonke wrote: “…and no part of religion has EVER been proven.”
What part of religion is supposed to be proven? You recognize that they are called “faiths” for a reason, yes? Belief is the activating principle in world religion per the instructions within the sacred texts, yet you are rejecting them because they operate on that foundational principle. Judging fields based on concepts they were never intended to function by seems to be another tenet of your version of “logic.” And this seems reasonable to you?
Bill Jonke wrote: “The decline and the desperation that's screaming from religion these days…”
What does that even mean? This sounds suspiciously faith-based. Show me proofs of this “screaming.” I’m to believe that project engineers operate on proof, right? Show me your proofs if you are truthful.
Bill Jonke wrote: “…is immeasurable because by some strange streak of fate, people are starting to think.”
Not in this thread they haven’t. You and Tony like to spew a lot of faith-based anti-religion doctrine you apparently make up on the fly though. I’m looking forward to you providing some facts that back up your claims so you can finally put me in my place.
Bill Jonke wrote: “Thinking isn't as easy as some people would believe…”
I’m genuinely not surprised to hear you confess this. The first step in curing a deficiency is to admit one possesses it. Maybe now we can get you the help you need, Bill. Good show.
Bill Jonke wrote: “…but have something or someone else think for you, real or imagined, leads to your ruin as a human being.”
Right now, you and Tony have jumped on the “Down with religion!” band wagon without a single fact among you to support your anti-religious claims. Whenever I provide any measure of pushback, you scamper off like Godless rodents (the worst kind of rodent, of course). What do you have for me today?
Throw down your rod.
Tony Steed - I don't need to throw down a rod. Since Morality is seen within the animal world without books. Religion is used by people to feel good about things unseen, and their place in the world. Most of us do not need such things. I am a human being. I treat other humans fairly, sometimes I treat them douchy, because I cam human. Your books of myth and fables, where Gods create imperfection, yet expect perfection are false parables.
Tony Steed - Your gods take human women, and impregnate them with themselves, then give birth to themselves, to sacrifice themselves, for something they did. That's a great moral play there.
Tony Steed - Your Gods are petty and impetulant. they demand worship, yet offer nothing in return except promises and rules to live by. Yet the rules they live by and expect us to live by are full of discrepancies, which people compile into old and new testaments from their mythical beings. Which people who follow the religions, like I used to, pick and choose which rules they wish to follow. You can despise the gay, yet on sunday you can go to church, then eat the shellfish afterwards. You can kill the blasphemer, yet wear multi fabriced items. You can claim the kingdom, yet shave your beards. You tell others the immorality of themselves, yet work on the sabbath.
Tony Steed - The promise of the church is designed to control the highest number with promises of greatness not on the world they live in but the world of tomorrow. Yet they fall into the trap of thinking themselves higher than their fellow man. You have men of the Church claim education and science, yet tell you to not question your Gods, because they work in mysterious ways. The church promoted education not among the masses but among themselves, it was a good thing that men and women of science and higher morality chose to rebel against the church, and chart a better course for humanity.
Tony Steed - Religion offers help to those in need as long as they accept the gods. As a human I offer help, because it's the right thing, and i care for no reward, if I am to be punished for not bowing to the gods, so be it. They do not deserve to be worshiped for the plagues they unleash on man and their creations. They can create, but every creators secondary job is to maintain. The creators write manuals for living that are NOT up to interpretation, and not up to being mistaken into old and new. The creators give knowledge to the people to maintain the creation, and then check in to make sure things run smooth. The gods of humans, THEIR creations, are surprisingly absent throughout history. Humanity has existed for 250 thousand years in our modern form, yet where were the gods to help us with their books and teachings?
Tony Steed - The gods of man deserve no worship, people should pray for others after helping others. Praying for the gods to do something is lazy, and makes people less capable of helping their fellows without care for heavenly rewards.
Tony Steed - The Gods, EVERY SINGLE ONE of them deserve nothing, because they do not exist. If they do exist mankind should not worship them, because the Gods have failed for 250 thousand years.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: "I don't need to throw down a rod."
You do if you claim to stand on the side of truth & facts. Proclaiming faith-based subjective opinion based on ignorant dislike is to perform what you say you condemn in your ideological rivals.
Tony Steed - @Muhammad Rasheed… You asked where has religion stopped progress. You must be blind to how islam went from being a religion that made amazing headways in the Science of astronomy, to what it''s become today. If religions were so progressive, why are there so many factions? if Religions don't impede progress, why did they burn bruno at the stake? Why did they kill Joan de arc a progressive and devout woman of her time, who led armies? Why did they put galileo under house arrest? Why the Inquisition which has just ended, but continues in christian countries? Science and Religion by Mark Humphrys (Irish. Atheist. Liberal-right. Anti-jihad. Pro-West. Pro-Israel.)
Tony Steed - I'll never claim truth, I will stand by facts. Truths are mutable, facts change as the evidence does. Truths are whatever people want them to be.
Muhammad Rasheed - lol You're literally making my argument for me and can't see it.
This is going to be fun...
Muhammad Rasheed - smh
Tony Steed - One thing about "debating" with the religious, is that they always see themselves winning. When I was a Christian, I was the same way. Thankfully I woke up.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: “Since Morality is seen within the animal world without books.”
Animals function primarily on instinct, while humans function primarily on learned behavior. I see you use the same “logic” that Bill dips into.
Tony Steed wrote: “Religion is used by people to feel good about things unseen, and their place in the world.”
That’s not the reason I subscribe to religion, so what are you basing this claim upon? You said you have no factual rods to throw down to prove any tenet of your faith-based anti-religion stance, so that would be a big fat “nothing,” right?
Tony Steed wrote: “Most of us do not need such things.”
How ironic. You proclaim a strawman, and then smugly state how people don’t need the concept you literally made up and then proclaimed as a truth. Interesting.
Tony Steed wrote: “I am a human being. I treat other humans fairly, sometimes I treat them douchy, because I cam human. Your books of myth and fables, where Gods create imperfection, yet expect perfection are false parables.”
Yet another strawman. In His scriptures, God gifted us with the concept of “repentance.” I would hardly think it would be needed if He expected “perfection.” Experience has shown that you walk around with a whole bag full of equal nonsense that you pretend comes from religion, a trait both you and Bill share. I expect nothing less from you.
Tony Steed - Where was Gods morality, for 248 thousand years?
Muhammad Rasheed - ^What does that mean? What are you asking?
Bill Jonke - So how many times has faith been broken? I don't have faith in anything! It usually comes back to bite you in the ass. My father would say "Take things as they come." I do interpret that as "drop the faith and do the best you can with what's handed to you!" He'd agree with me on that!
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: “Your gods take human women, and impregnate them with themselves, then give birth to themselves, to sacrifice themselves, for something they did. That's a great moral play there.”
There’s too much Pauline Christian doctrine reference here for me to defend, which I cannot do. You are woefully ignorant on the Islamic stance of the immaculate conception so I cannot debate it with you. Naturally I don’t expect you to research it so you can catch up.
Tony Steed - Actually I'm reading it now...
Muhammad Rasheed - SURRRRRE you are.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: “Your Gods are petty and impetulant. they demand worship, yet offer nothing in return except promises and rules to live by.”
Do you not breathe, walk about, and have the freedom to blaspheme the God that made you at your discretion? Has He not provided the bounty of the earth to sate your ungrateful gullet? Has He not offered Eternal Bliss in exchange for obeying Him?
Then what in the WORLD can you possibly be talking about?
Tony Steed wrote: “Yet the rules they live by and expect us to live by are full of discrepancies…”
Like what? And how could you possibly be qualified to discern between a discrepancy and the truth of the Lord?
Tony Steed wrote: “…which people compile into old and new testaments from their mythical beings. Which people who follow the religions, like I used to…”
Please stop pretending that you used to actually follow the commands of God. We already had that discussion and you admitted you had no idea what the book said; you didn’t even read it.
Tony Steed wrote: “…pick and choose which rules they wish to follow.”
You admit that humans choose not to do what God commands, yet somehow blame the religion for the deficiency? And this is logical to you?
Tony Steed wrote: “You can despise the gay, yet on sunday you can go to church, then eat the shellfish afterwards. You can kill the blasphemer, yet wear multi fabriced items. You can claim the kingdom, yet shave your beards. You tell others the immorality of themselves, yet work on the sabbath.”
Obviously this critique is a reference to the difference between the old and new Testaments of the Christian faith. I’ll take up this challenge for them.
What did Jesus tell the children of Israel (since you claim you used to be a Christian) if they would follow him and accept his message? Tell me if you know.
Tony Steed - It means, why did the Gods wait 248 thousand years to write terrible books on how to live, and what they want us to do
Tony Steed - Jesus Christ in Islam
Tony Steed - I like knowing what I speak..
Muhammad Rasheed - Apparently not, Tony.
Tony Steed wrote: "It means, why did the Gods wait 248 thousand years to write terrible books on how to live, and what they want us to do"
Who said God waited thousands of years before He wrote His books? Based on what? Is that what scripture says?
Tony Steed - And mention in the Book (the Qur’an, O Muhammad, the story of) Maryam, when she withdrew in seclusion from her family to a place facing east. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Ruh (the angel Gabriel), and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects. She said: ‘Verily, I seek refuge with the Most Gracious (Allah) from you, if you do fear Allah.’ (The angel) said: ‘I am only a messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son.’ She said: ‘How can I have a son, when no man hath touched me, nor am I unchaste?’ He said: ‘So (it will be), your Lord said "That is easy for Me (Allah): And (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (Allah), and it is a matter (already) decreed (by Allah)." ‘ " Qur’an – Surat Maryam 19: 16-21
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: “The promise of the church is designed […] and chart a better course for humanity.”
We already talked about this and you were conspicuously silent. What does the bureaucratic institutions of men and their power struggles, have to do with the tenets of the faith of God and His commands for your life. Everyone with a lick of sense (and I’m not even Christian) recognize the difference between “The Church” and “Christianity,” so why can’t you, O Former Christian?
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: "And mention in the Book (the Qur’an, O Muhammad, the story of) Maryam..."
I certainly hope you plan to explain how that verse supports your point.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: “Religion offers help to those in need as long as they accept the gods.”
Religion offers salvation from the weaknesses in humanity.
Tony Steed wrote: “As a human I offer help…”
Do you offer salvation?
Tony Steed wrote: “…because it's the right thing…”
How do you know that helping people is the right thing? Based on what?
Tony Steed wrote: “…and i care for no reward, if I am to be punished for not bowing to the gods, so be it.”
It is a certainty. Die in your current state of unbelief and you are doomed.
Tony Steed wrote: “They do not deserve to be worshiped for the plagues they unleash on man and their creations.”
Humans die. lol Does it matter how? Humans live this life to prepare themselves for the Life Eternal. Plagues, storms, etc. demonstrate how none of us have any control over the hour of our deaths… it can come at anytime. It would behoove us to make sure our lives are in order so we can be alright on the Otherside. This is part of the warning of God’s message that you are oddly unaware of. Your “plagues they unleash” concept is considerably at odds with the actual message of God and lacks insight on any level.
Tony Steed wrote: “They can create, but every creators secondary job is to maintain. The creators write manuals for living that are NOT up to interpretation, and not up to being mistaken into old and new.”
You’ve proven once again to have NO IDEA what’s in His book, so why do you think you are qualified to speak on how it can be interpreted, etc.? The message has endured for thousands of years; do you recognize this? The problem you think you see is one of statistics and is already built into the Plan. Ask me how.
Tony Steed wrote: “The creators give knowledge to the people to maintain the creation, and then check in to make sure things run smooth. The gods of humans, THEIR creations, are surprisingly absent throughout history. Humanity has existed for 250 thousand years in our modern form, yet where were the gods to help us with their books and teachings?”
Everything you’d said here is part of your personal belief’s lack of understanding about the point of religion, and once again fails to line up to the actual Abrahamic religions & Scripture. I’m looking forward to seeing how you plan to justify these comments. Naturally I’ve heard them before from equally ignorant atheists who have a habit of simply making up what they think religion is about and them arguing against it as if it is true in a classic strawman. This is your opportunity to provide facts to support these. Anytime you’re ready.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: “The gods of man deserve no worship…”
By definition God deserves worship. He created everything you hold dear and made life possible.
Tony Steed wrote: “…people should pray for others after helping others.”
What?
Tony Steed wrote: “Praying for the gods to do something is lazy, and makes people less capable of helping their fellows without care for heavenly rewards.”
You just demonstrated that you have NO IDEA what the point of prayer is. None. Tony how can you critique something, and have such a hard-hearted stance against a field of study, when you don’t know anything about it at all? How do you justify this? Tell me.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: “The Gods, EVERY SINGLE ONE of them…”
There is only One God. Does your ignorance know no limits?
Tony Steed wrote: “…deserve nothing, because they do not exist.”
The One God’s enduring message, guiding mankind for lo these thousands of years, says otherwise. How long do you believe your words will last? Hm?
Tony Steed wrote: “If they do exist mankind should not worship them, because the Gods have failed for 250 thousand years.”
lol Failed at what exactly? Tell me.
Tony Steed - Funny thing is every single argument is based on your personal belief based on 1 book, by sheep herders 2000 years ago. I grant you that's some amazing faith.. I also do love how you keep telling me I know nothing.. it's pretty amazing. But all good. Arguing the facts of the bible, or the Koran, using only those books as evidence is a poor argument. Because every other book outside of the books of the religious, ALL religions. Your God is no more real than the Gods of Mthraism, Egyptian Pantheon, The Greeks, the Hellenists, the pagans, the wiccans (of whom I follow intensely), the jews, the christians, or anyones. There's no there there. Praying to the Gods for help with a task, is like asking the wall to open the door for you. When you can simply do it yourself.
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: "Funny thing is every single argument is based on your personal belief..."
And yet you've opted not to provide any actual facts for your own faith-based claims. Curious.
I keep saying "Ask me how." lol Are you scared to?
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: “@Muhammad Rasheed… You asked where has religion stopped progress. You must be blind to how islam went from being a religion that made amazing headways in the Science of astronomy, to what it''s become today.”
lol So you admit to me that during the fresh bloom of its purity, the religion of Al-Islam led the world in progress, but became less so as it became bogged down with bureaucratic institutionalism over time. In other words, the religion was great for progress the closer it was to its original holy/divine source, but became less so as mankind focus less on the Source and more on the institution of “The Church.” You type this at me, yet fail to see the significance? And in the very same thread you choose to blaspheme that Source and build up evidence against yourself in the face of that which you mock? lol
Tony Steed wrote: “If religions were so progressive, why are there so many factions?”
This is a question? The most perfect system in the universe won’t work if people don’t follow it but only pretend to. You know this better than anyone, Mr. Former Christian who couldn’t tell me basic shit about the bible.
Tony Steed wrote: “…if Religions don't impede progress, why did they burn bruno at the stake?”
Explain what that had to do with the commands of God in His religion and you will answer it for yourself.
Tony Steed wrote: “Why did they kill Joan de arc a progressive and devout woman of her time, who led armies?”
Were the people who killed her following God’s commands? How come the historians know why they killed her but you don’t? lol Why are you even bringing up her name since you are ignorant of the story? She was killed because those leaders feared her power over the people and her potential influence. Why are you blaming that on “religion?”
Tony Steed wrote: “Why did they put galileo under house arrest?”
Again, what did that have to do with the religion of God? Can you find the verse in His book that commanded them to do so? Do it.
Tony Steed wrote: “Why the Inquisition which has just ended, but continues in Christian”
Why are you bringing up the Inquisition? The Spanish Inquisition was a royal decree formed to persecute those hypocrites of the state who didn’t comply with the royal command for everyone to convert. This came from Isabella & Ferdinand, not from the church. Why are you bringing this up when you are not aware of these facts?
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: “I also do love how you keep telling me I know nothing.. it's pretty amazing.”
Stop continuously proclaiming fallacies and untruths about the religions while pretending they are truths found in the religions and I promise to stop doing it. Deal?
Tony Steed wrote: “But all good.”
*shrug* It’s up to you.
Tony Steed wrote: “Arguing the facts of the bible, or the Koran, using only those books as evidence is a poor argument. Because every other book outside of the books of the religious, ALL religions”
To be clear, when you argue concepts that are at odds with what the book actually teaches (remember your “plagues they unleash” comment?) naturally I would use the instructions within the book to refute your nonsense. What you just did there is called classic misdirection, while failing to provide anything at all to support your own claims outside of your subjective bias.
Tony Steed wrote: “Your God is no more real than the Gods of the jews, the Christians”
Do you understand the significance of referring to these three as “Abrahamic?” What does that mean in YOUR world, Tony?
Tony Steed wrote: “Mthraism, Egyptian Pantheon, The Greeks, the Hellenists, the pagans, the wiccans (of whom I follow intensely), , or anyones. There's no there there.”
There is only one message from One God – one that has endured throughout the ages – in which He has addressed mankind, explained who He was, explained that all other deities are but fictions of rebellious men, and instructed mankind in what He wants from us so we may prosper. Not a single one of those other deities have a message that challenges this message from the One God. In fact, all of the ones you’ve named are officially “dead religions” with all that may imply. Logically, what does that mean in YOUR world, Tony?
Tony Steed wrote: “Praying to the Gods for help with a task, is like asking the wall to open the door for you. When you can simply do it yourself.”
When an atheist, who has no idea what the purpose of prayer is, attempts to give an analogy demonstrating his opinion of the concept, it has the equivalent value as work boots on a tape worm.
Tony Steed wrote: "One thing about 'debating' with the religious, is that they always see themselves winning. When I was a Christian, I was the same way. Thankfully I woke up."
Naturally I assume you now think you are losing. lol
Tony Steed - lol Actually I don't think i'm losing. Just offering that Gods, yours nor anyone elses exists. They affect the humans that believe in them in amazing ways, and mostly to the detriment of those who believe otherwise, and those who don't believe. The People of the Gods, have more influence, than the Gods themselves. Yours or anyone else.
Muhammad Rasheed - You're supposed to stand on the side
of facts, so are you going to provide any facts that support any of your
claims? Are you going to answer any of the challenges that provide opportunity
for you to prove what you claim about religion?
Or do you plan to continue to say things about the faiths that they themselves never claim while pretending you are actually winning this argument? Do you think you can consider yourself an advocate of facts and win an argument, while not once providing a fact to support your side of the discussion?
Or do you plan to continue to say things about the faiths that they themselves never claim while pretending you are actually winning this argument? Do you think you can consider yourself an advocate of facts and win an argument, while not once providing a fact to support your side of the discussion?
Muhammad Rasheed - Tony Steed wrote: "...and
mostly to the detriment of those who believe otherwise, and those who don't
believe."
Explain how, please. I wish to once again demonstrate your pathetic inability to discern between religion and institutionalism.
Peace be on you.
Explain how, please. I wish to once again demonstrate your pathetic inability to discern between religion and institutionalism.
Tony Steed - We're good my man. You win. I can't prove
anything, even if i'm not the one claiming magic. I give.
Muhammad Rasheed - So the guy who says he is an
advocate of facts can't provide any facts to back his passionate, faith-based
anti-religious stance.
Thank you, Tony.
Thank you, Tony.
Muhammad Rasheed - I suggest that you bow down to your
Guardian Lord who made you, repent of the filth of your disbelief, and do as He
commands that you may prosper in this life and in the next.
Peace be on you.
Tony Steed - No. I just know when to end a
"discussion" that's going nowhere. don' 't pat yourself on the back
too hard. You didn't gain any ground.
Muhammad Rasheed - lol It "went nowhere"
because you refused to answer any challenges or questions asked of you,
continued to say things of the religions that weren't true within the belief systems
themselves, never provided any facts to support your arguments, and then gave
up.
Somehow this means I didn't gain any ground. lol
Somehow this means I didn't gain any ground. lol
