Paul Rhoads - Hey, Muhammad Rasheed, you rascal, get over here! l've had enough of your "dark gray" cave. If you have a reply to my last comment, say it here. ; -)
Muhammad Rasheed - *BAM!*
John Justin Green - Fantastic. Literally. If anyone thinks they understand all that I, then they are likely alone in a unique personal reality. This is masterbation Muhammad.
Kindly try to develop reliable exchange where we or at least two people brlieve they have the same understanding. What is going on here is far from that.
I would not trust us on anything so developed. Let us see if we can underztand what each other thinks is good and what is evil. Seriously. Dont joke. We need to start somewhere very basic.
I will start. Good is only what God wants. Evil is rebelion from the will of God. You?
Paul Rhoads - hmm.. that's a big start John..
Rasheed, you rascal, how about enligtehing us on what should be excised from western society - besides racism because l have a vauge impression - nothing too clear - that you feel a slight disaproval of it - just my speculation based on a sort of general impression, so no need to get upset if my l'm a bit off in this regard!
So, racism asside: what should go?
John Justin Green - I know but where would you start?
Paul Rhoads - where start? how about some minor points which might allow us to callibrate the discussion into some sort of reasonable mode.... we got to calm this baby down! Get him out of over-reaction insult mode..
John Justin Green - I hope Muhammad Rasheed knows his Bam comes across like a boy crossing the enzone and doing a victory dance for an imaginary game he stars in.
Paul Rhoads - ... l mean lies from the pit of hell ... how do you deal with that?
Paul Rhoads - Oh, let him dance. The world is watching. If his moves are good he'll get applause.
John Justin Green - I thought good evil could help us calibrate. It would take a lot of discussion but I believe that is the efficient path.
Paul Rhoads - start small - to calibrate. Theology later.lf we can't reach friedly conversation mode it's not workable.
John Justin Green - Good and evil is a song we all think we know. If we check that it would be a value even if it is not as meta as you are thinking.
John Justin Green - Where to start then?
John Justin Green - Actually God's will is as meta as we can imagine
William Michael Mott - I think we should discuss the various traits of a Vancian villain: sneaky, manipulative, violent to a precise fault. The kind of guy who has a balance of sociopathic tendenices and egomaniacal ones... and who wants to bend all others to his will. Even little girls whom he finds attractive and wants to take home. He might even start his own religion... didn't Vance write about that a few times? Any real-world megalomaniacal scumbags from our own human history would surely be coincidental.
John Justin Green - Or maybe a fundamental exploration of Theology. The underlying theme of the old law from the Tora. And the underlying principles of Christ and Mohamed.
John Justin Green - Tora is the establishment of property rights and God's desires for respecting individual rights via avoidance of all encroachments by lies or physical invasion.
John Justin Green - Christ's message of forgiveness and individual efforts to forgive and love each other
John Justin Green - And then Mohomed's directive to follow the outlines for life he set and subjugate everyone and free will to those outlines. This is not compatible with the freedoms and respect of individual property and thought which was the basis of the US. Freedom of religion was a concept in the early US that did not realize the existence of such an incompatible theology.
John Justin Green - Muhammad Rasheed might strive to correct me, but I have become aware of duplicity in Islamic scripture. The redacted scripture after Mohamed left Mecca is an issue which I would like to see him deal with to our satisfaction. But he is likely to claim we can not understand why what seems wrong is actually good without an amount of study that would practically make us Muslim. I would like have my expectations exceeded.
Paul Rhoads - Indeed! As William Michael Mott points out: solopsim of such force that it bends reality!
Vancian villans who create religions: Arman (Crusade to Maxus) - all about ending slavery, very aprops.
.... Loomie is not a villan but he creats realities - one of which, as l recall, is identical to a situation set up by Maziran ... in fact out dear Muhammad Rasheed makes me feel like poor Turgen to his mini dragon! ... V. Faluche also created realites... all very appropos... our Rasheed, while denying clairity to all others, proclames a personal reality which he projects and maintains, in the manner we have seen.
Paul Rhoads - @John Justin Green… you think too big! Let's see if we can get our friend to agree that 2+2 is a number between zero ( a great muslim achievment in science!!!!) and 7.
William Michael Mott - @Paul Rhoads… don't forget: Viole Falushe has many personality traits and behaviors which are identical to those ascribed to Mohammed in both the Koran and the hadiths.
Muhammad Rasheed - Paul Rhoads wrote: "I mean lies from the pit of hell ... how do you deal with that?"
Hopefully by dialing WAY back on the lying. That would be the recommended method.
Muhammad Rasheed - Paul Rhoads wrote: "So, racism asside: what should go?"
Sexism/misogyny. Thus and so.
Muhammad Rasheed - John Justin Green wrote: "I know but where would you start?"
At the front of the line! This is found in the beginning, in the time-honored grand tradition!
John Justin Green - We should all practice what we preach. But you do realize the three of us are under the belief that you are delusional and we have it all strait. And you think likewise. Do you have any interest in professing your view on fundamental areas as I mentioned above? If not, then what?
Muhammad Rasheed - John Justin Green wrote: "I will start. Good is only what God wants. Evil is rebelion from the will of God. You?"
I have no problem accepting this definition, especially since it is the absolute truth. Surprising coming from you. I lack hope that lightning will strike twice, of course.
William Michael Mott - Apparently Rasheed doesn't realize that what we now call political correctness was repugnant to Vance, and his writings bear this out. There are more instances of his ridicule and satirizing such things than I have time to list at the moment. Start with Adam Reith's interaction with various human groups on Tschai, and move onward to Cugel, and then the Alastor Cluster. And so many more.
John Justin Green - Is it posible for you to make a post without the reference to your superiority? That would reduce the number of letter you type and get the same message across. The wuality of a man speaks through his work and not so well his mouth.
William Michael Mott - In short: Rigid and unforgiving/unbending religious, social and political systems were the foils of Vance's protagonists. Always. Without exception. This would correlate well with Churchill's factual evaluation.
Muhammad Rasheed - So long as a bare minimum of respect is maintained I will 'realize' your points with sincerity. My line is thus: Please do not get too comfortable and start whipping around traditional racial slurs. It will be impossible for me to stick around at that point. All else is fair game.
William Michael Mott - This is what is revolting: bringing race into a discussion out of the blue, when it was not present previously. The set-up for a weak argument of false indignation.
Muhammad Rasheed - John Justin Green wrote: "Is it posible for you to make a post without the reference to your superiority?"
Certainly! Merely elevate your status from uncouth lout to noble Muslim, and VOILA! Your goal will be achieved!
Muhammad Rasheed - Almost like magic!
John Justin Green - Ok then the next dtep is check what we believe is God's will. Here I expect we differ.
God wants us to respect each other's property and be truthful and show honor to him, love each other and make no claim on each other. What say you?
Muhammad Rasheed - Agreed! I have no issue with this.
John Justin Green - When you are Muslim aee you all on the same level?
William Michael Mott - A noble Muslim? Really? This sounds somewhat sanctimonious and supremacist, doesn't it? But of course it does, it's just par for the course, disguised as a half-jest. Having lived in a Muslim nation as a child, I believe all American Muslims should do the same, along with their families. Then they would have access to data which enables an accurate evaluation.
Muhammad Rasheed - Explain.
William Michael Mott - The statement is self-explanatory.
John Justin Green - You are going to far. We have not even agreed on what it is God wants.
Muhammad Rasheed - Explain what the benefits are as you see them, Will. May I remind you that you yourself pointed out our vast differences in seeing the world. "Self-explanatory" may need a bit of a nudge or two, truly.
John Justin Green - I think Mike is referring to the material travesties that are common to fully Muslim states. But that is for a later discussion. I think we are making progress at the begining of the road.
Muhammad Rasheed - John Justin Green wrote: "When you are Muslim aee you all on the same level?"
By no means! God said He only judges humanity on the levels of righteousness they have achieved. Those who are more righteous are on a higher level than those who flounder.
John Justin Green - Then I can not believe becoming a Muslim will stop your frequent bludgeoning!
Muhammad Rasheed - Try it. You may be surprised.
John Justin Green - If I do and I do not like it, the penalty is death. So I will need to consult my lawyers, prepare methods of escape and generally take extreme care before I do so.
John Justin Green - I mean if I turn back from it to my former Christian state
William Michael Mott - I will posit it to you like this: You see every mention of Islam or Muslims or Mohammed as in need of your personal approval, and permission. This is the attitude of a slave, even if a mental one. Is Allah not tough enough to take up for himself, without outraged, nitpicking revisionists to constantly go on the attack? Pretty pathetic.
A real God would take care of his detractors himself. He would not need constant harping and help, to deal with even imagined slights. It is ironic that you read Vance, Mohammed, as your mind is not really free. You are enslaved by a cruel political system which masquerades as a religion, and you dare not tolerate a stray thought that makes you question your programming.
I have lived in a Muslim society. There were many beautiful things there, and many filthy and merciless ones. Backwards, actually. The kinds of things that had a housekeeper begging my parents to adopt her daughter and bring her back the USA, to escape the culture and religious insanity, but which they were not permitted by law to do. The kind of things that go on throughout the Muslim world today, where black people are still sold and held as slaves, women and girls are brutalized, and boys are raped. American Muslims should move to the Gulf States and experience this cultural enrichment first hand.
John Justin Green - Wow, I had no idea you did that.
William Michael Mott - Yes.
John Justin Green - What does God want Rasheed?
Muhammad Rasheed - [stand by; responses pending]
John Justin Green - No hurry. Paul is away and I need to go to bed. East Coast USA.
William Michael Mott - Oh, and to be clear: Criticism of anything Islamic is not "racist". A belief-system is not a "race". There are Muslims of every conceivable hue and ethnic background, just as there are among Buddhists, Christians, Hindus and so on. To throw the race-card or the oppressed card here is to earn contempt. Do it too often and it is to earn banishment. This is not censorship; rather it is the exclusion of an immature and petulant mentality of a disrupting nature, which wastes time and energy.
Muhammad Rasheed - I was specifically referring to my status as a Black American, in which "race" is quite apt as an appropriate descriptor.
All else is fair game.
John Justin Green - In our mind Mike that is so. But the overlapping identities of race and belief here make for an association which Rasheed believes is also a cause effect relationship. And coincidental. He believes we are white supremacists and that we have issue with Islam from the same source as our racism. It is a self verifying loop which can not be proven wrong any more than you can prove that I do not command invisible undetectable magic dragons which I insist on. AM I right Rasheed?
William Michael Mott - I would hope that we could discuss Vance, without bringing race into any of it. Why do you feel the need to do so? Again, are you attempting to create racial tension where none existed previously? If so, I would submit that the only concerns with race are coming from you, out of the blue and with no basis. In other words, I don't care what color you are. I care only about your character and your mind.
John Justin Green - Un-testable belief should not be pushed at anyone. The whole subeject of race is seriously flawed and irrational. I think I will explain this to Rasheed in a good way tomorrow.
John Justin Green - He thinks we have nothing new to show him but that is not true.
William Michael Mott - I see such self-inflicted victimhood identity as inherently "racist", and the fact that it is even brought up, repugnant. Vance was a Caucasian of Irish descent. So why then would Rasheed read him? After all, he wrote about white imperialism and expansionism into the cosmos. Isn't that anathema to whiny, overly-sensitive self-identified-victim PC types?
John Justin Green - But Mike we may be so culturally biased that we are unaware of said racism. So we must give it a fair hearing. First Rasheed must make crystal clear what he mean by racism.
William Michael Mott - Why even bring it up in this forum? It is designed, again, simply to create a false narrative of victimhood and oppression. No one is being oppressed or racially profiled here--unless it is everyone other than Rasheed, and he is doing it to us. Without basis, grounds or bearing.
John Justin Green - I am bringing it up because I have a point or two to make about it. Tomorrow.
Paul Rhoads - ... l think that our rascally friend in fact really wants to talk about racism : it's the only thing that really interests him - beacuse his version of lslam is just a faccade for a sort of supercharged judaisized Christianity, and his politics are just leftist boilerplate... so l'm going to start another thread. Bravo John: you have done what l couldn't do: get our friend to partisipate in some positive and vaugely polite exchages! You're a better man than l...
Muhammad Rasheed - Patience! I'm still at work!
Muhammad Rasheed - Some of these questions are too meaty to get into right at this moment. Trust me I'll get to them. Smacking Deuce upside the back of his head was lite work.
Paul Rhoads - You are becomming tiersome, than which no fault is more shameful. We all want to have some fruitful engagements. Stop emulating you warrior prophet name-sake and trying to conquer and destroy all the time! We want to be friends, so we can explore each other's ideas and perhaps learn something.
Hencefourth l will be ignoring anything unfriendly.
Muhammad Rasheed - If I tried that, it would only encourage the behavior that you are pretending not to do. "We aren't insulting you if it's what we really believe about [insert Islam insult]!"
Muhammad Rasheed - You put me in the position of forcing me to defend myself, with sarcastic quips making up the bulk of my arsenal, so if they carry a sting I can only advise you to be more considerate to others who you are quite aware do not share your world view. But because I am outnumbered here, it does not inspire me to be nice if I read something that sounds like either a blatant or underhanded slight at my expense. If I just let it go without countering, it will eventually build up as a resentment in me because of my 'scorpio' tit-for-tat nature (i don't really believe in horoscope sign lore FYI).
William Michael Mott - Rasheed, no one cares. The gist of it is that no one here is going to kow-tow to your PC garbage, including your attempts to paint yourself as some sort of victim. Apparently you are used to playing those cards, ad nauseum, in most of your interactions. Without that act to fall back on, what do you have to offer, intellectually speaking? I would submit "not much".
I would be more interested, for instance, in discussing how Vance's writing influenced your graphic storytelling, character development, and so on. But you are stuck on virtual jihad setting. That would be a meaningful exchange. In the larger picture, you are not going to revise history and fact while I'm around. You're just spinning your wheels if you try to do so.
Muhammad Rasheed - The prophet was not like that. The early Muslim battles during his lifetime were defensive in nature.
Muhammad Rasheed - William Michael Mott wrote: "Rasheed, no one cares."
Oh, you care alright. That's why you invited me.
William Michael Mott - No, they weren't. And his overall lifetime was one of warfare, pillage, rape, slave-taking, and murdering those who opposed him. And no, I didn't invite you. Green did. I'm tolerating you (for now).
Muhammad Rasheed - Ask me any questions you wish about Vance's influence on my process, etc. I will answer.
William Michael Mott - Let's do it in another thread. Or even better, please start another one. That way we can keep the topics separated. I do think it's important to create media with a better use of vocabulary and language. I suspect you've done that.
Muhammad Rasheed - Yes, they were defensive in nature. Your bias against the religion does not equal truth I'm afraid.
Green did, but why did you say "no one cares?" That would imply more than just you, yes?
Muhammad Rasheed - First, I will address some of these questions you all asked before I left the house earlier. Even though your mind is closed tight as a zygote fist against anything that opposes your dedicated anti-Islam hatred, it will be fun for my records.
Paul Rhoads - "hatred" - how tieresom!
We allow you to have your opinions but you will not allow us to have ours.
I DO NOT APPROVE OF ISLAM.
Can you not live with that? Live with it, because you have no choice.
Muhammad Rasheed - I am allowing you to have your opinions -- how am I not? My countering things that come across as insulting to me is just my response. Now if you want me to just not say anything back, then I consider that censorship. Why do you get to be Brave & Free, but not I?
Paul Rhoads - And stop justifying yourself. We don't care. In fact we are like Mr. Rogers: we like you as you are - but you make it boring to interact with you.
We must learn to accept that some people won't regard as sacred what we regard as sacred.
Muhammad Rasheed - That double-standard mindset -- that you can't even see that you are doing -- is a big part of the main conflict!
Paul Rhoads - if l am blind it behooves you to be indulgent.
How can you exspect me to SEE if l am BLIND?
Your attitude is uncharitable! Where is your vaunted muslim charitableness (in fact crypto-christian charitablenesd, but never mind...)
Muhammad Rasheed - Paul, you just admitted to having a idolatry relationship with your image of Churchill. As a Muslim, why would you think that would pull sympathy from me, even if the old windbag WASN'T a racist piece of crap? No offense.
Paul Rhoads - "racist piece of crap" No offence... ? why should l take offence since it becomes more and more difficult to take you seriously.
And what do l care for your excitableness about the word "sacred" by which you are avoiding the friendly point l made?
Muhammad Rasheed - hahahaha But it didn't even make sense! lol What was I supposed to DO with that??? hahaha
William Michael Mott - Again, note that Rasheed says *for his records". This bears out my earlier observations about his character and motivations. He seeks to use this group and his interactions here as some sort of self-vindication for his imagined persecution complex. It would be best just to send him on his way. He really has nothing of substance to offer.
Paul Rhoads - ... l'm beginning to wonder.
Paul Rhoads - ... This really is vance villan behavior: defining reality, seing slights everywhere... not so good.
Muhammad Rasheed - lol
Paul Rhoads - olo
Muhammad Rasheed - Guys, what we just went through in the other group should reveal the TRUE motivation. I hate thread-deleting, thought police behavior as much as you do. I control the discussions I take part in. Period.
Muhammad Rasheed - I hate others having power over what I say, where I say it, and how when/where it is displayed.
Muhammad Rasheed - It's about FREEDOM, not villainy.
William Michael Mott - You "control the discussions", yet it's "about freedom". Thanks for displaying your totalitarian and even egomaniacal mindset so openly. The amusing thing is that you fail to even see it as you do it.
William Michael Mott - You control nothing, certainly not with your intellect.
Paul Rhoads - You won't respect my freedom to think differently than you.
You assume that opinions you don't like are lies.
You take offence when no offence is meant.
You take a stance of victime and hurl invective wtwithout restraint on this basis.
You refuse the hand of friendship repeatedly offered.
Muhammad Rasheed - Paul, you reflect back to me every single thing you listed, but you consider me unreasonable. lol
I swear I don't understand how you think.
Paul Rhoads - WMM puts his finger defly on the nub .... l suppose Rasheed will cry "lie" instead of learning something.
Muhammad Rasheed - I control whether the discussions I take part in disappear from the face of the earth without my consent, yes. You are free to do whatever you wish with your threads, but I will control my content.
Paul Rhoads - Apparanty you don't. I'm beginning to wonder if you are not feeble minded!
Muhammad Rasheed - What has William offered that was worthy of learning? I have found him the single most hateful person I've encountered in the last week.
Paul Rhoads - Stop controlling!!! Be free!!! Let go!! Explore, learn, share!!!
Muhammad Rasheed - @Paul... was that another example of the offered "hand of friendship?" Because I read it differently.
Paul Rhoads - Anything you dislike is "hateful" ... does this remind you of nothing in Vance??
Muhammad Rasheed - Did you feel free when you were still under the impression that those threads had been lost forever?
William Michael Mott - So I REFUSE to enable your persecution fantasies. You are out of your league here, with your throwing around the w I Rd "freedom" as you seek to undermine the free thinking and speech of others. Islam means "submission" or "surrender"; you have done so, even intellectually. The rest of us refuse to do so and will remain truly free thinkers. Be sure and copy that for your blog, although I'm sure you will omit portions just as you did from the other group. I'm all for booting you, but I'll leave that up to John Justin Green for now.
Muhammad Rasheed - @ Paul... No. The fact that you don't consider his comments to me to be insulting makes me think you have the feeble mind you accused me of having though.
Paul Rhoads - You see everything negatively because you start from the wrong assumption.
i.e. you will not acknoledge my good will ( as l acknoledge yours).
Muhammad Rasheed - @William… tell me specifically what I did to undermine your free thinking and speech, please.
William Michael Mott - Your words and intent, along with your silly ad hominids, speak for themselves.
Muhammad Rasheed - But you've been insulting me continuously since we've met. Are you not accountable for your own behavior?
Paul Rhoads - l've aready told you! You insist on taking as insult what others regard as fact - with out prejudice to you. We can think you are wrong while still being friends.
Muhammad Rasheed - Why are you pretending this is only about me? Because there are two of you? lol
William Michael Mott - Insulting you? No. Observations based on your behavior and motivations are not insults.
Muhammad Rasheed - Well, that's fine. I still have the right of Free Speech to respond back to it, don't I? So why do you campaign so hard to get me to relinquish my rights?
Would you be willing to do that if I were equally so insistent?
Muhammad Rasheed - Then why are you acting insulted when I do it back to you, Will?
Paul Rhoads - Two sides: good will on one and paranoia on the other.
Stop the fake laughing, it has a shit-eating quality that l don't like to see in you.
William Michael Mott - What exactly are you even postulation or saying? Nothing, really.
Muhammad Rasheed - You two have a blatant double-standard stance that I hate to see on you. Will you set it aside and become significantly more likable?
William Michael Mott - Yours is the double-standard, Rasheed. Absurdly so.
Paul Rhoads - ug!!! LET GO MAN!!
Cut it out with the rights and defence and hurt feelings!!
Be free! If you are strong insults mean nothing. If you truly believe you need no approbation or safe-space.
Stand WITH us.
Muhammad Rasheed - Okay, so this part of the discussion is growing boring, because it's exactly like talking to a couple of stone pillars.
I'm going to scroll back up to Paul & John's original posts, and start answering the actual fun questions now to rekindle my interest.
Paul Rhoads - lndeed... what is it really about...? The "freedom / right" to say anything about Churchill without being answered.
Paul Rhoads - ...l'm not going to deal with secondary threads. Post at the bottom, start a new thread, or do without me. :(
Muhammad Rasheed - So you want to indulge in your Freedom of Speech while stifling mine. And you somehow consider that "friendship."
"Standing with you" sounds remarkably like I would be deliberately agreeing to a subordinate slave state. You're actually getting upset with me because nothing at all about what you are proposing is even remotely appealing. I "submit" to the Supreme Creator of the heavens and the earth alone, gentlemen.
Muhammad Rasheed - I'll post my answers at the bottom of the thread still. I didn't like bouncing around up & down the thread like that either.
Paul Rhoads - ... sheesh. l give up. There is no cure for terminal stupidity.
Muhammad Rasheed - I have no idea why you are reacting that way. I'm stupid because I told you "no" and rejected what you were offering?
Perhaps you should instead do a better job of making it not sound monstrous and insane, instead of calling me names.
Paul Rhoads - "stupidity" _no offence_ just reality as l see it.
Paul Rhoads - l can do no better. You are blessed with the eye cusps of Underherd and see all things in the perspective of some demon world.
Muhammad Rasheed - lol This is what it is like arguing with the Racial Contract signatory.
Paul Rhoads - ... yech ... spit out that sh..t man!
Paul Rhoads - ... :(
Muhammad Rasheed - You two are literally insane. You are monsters.
Please change utterly; repent of your behavior, and beg God to forgive you. And then do good in the earth so you are cleansed. Stop being the way you are IMMEDIATELY so you may avoid hellfire.
Paul Rhoads - agg!!! ok!!! l repent!@ l beg God's forgiveness!! Hence fourth l will be different!! (spare me hellfire, oh please l beg and implore!!!!!)
William Michael Mott - You're delusional, Rasheed.
William Michael Mott - Thanks for yet more silly insults. Double-standard, indeed...
Muhammad Rasheed - Are you not saying that you want to say whatever you want, but you want me to shut up and only respond on your terms? You don't consider that a double-standard? What is it then?
William Michael Mott - You're an idiot.
Muhammad Rasheed - No, I am not. And that's why you are upset.
Son of the Fray: Shedding the Big Two
THE FRAY III: Battlefield Cleanup
WARNING! This Discussion Forum is Guarded by the Thought Police! NO DISCUSSIONS ALLOWED!
The Spirit of Trullion: A Religious Dialogue within the Alastor Cluster
Churchill's Anti-Islam Drivel Revisited
A Tribute to Jack Vance (August 28, 1916 – May 26, 2013)