Saturday, December 9, 2017
Are Mainstream Modern Comics Just Racist Propaganda Tracts?
Dave Cotton - What one thing do you hate most about modern comics?
Muhammad Rasheed - They continue the trend of supporting the White Supremacist Ideology.
Dave Cotton - Explain, personally I don't think that Marvel and several other groups do that. Astro City doesn't do that either.
Brandon Peyton - I dont want to speak for Muhammad, but i agree with him.
Basically they all push the idea (intentionally or not) that white heroes are superior to POC heroes. As you've said dozen of times, they push the Steve's, Tony's, etc... and treat the Rhodey's, Luke's and Miles', like second class citizens. Second best. Replacements. Backups.
That is rooted in the idea that white heroes "sell better" than POC heroes and thus must be centered. That's white supremacy. White supremacy isn't just the N word, lynching, etc...
Muhammad Rasheed - Thanks, Brandon.
@Dave... To build upon Brandon's point, the real world is very much a white-dominated civilization that forces the White Supremacist Ideology down our throats at all levels. They do this to indoctrinate us all into supporting their ham-fisted monopoly of wealth & power. Those of us who are indoctrinated -- and we ALL are to varying levels -- take on the racist nonsense they want us to believe as uncritical faux-truths. Consequently, those fake racist political talking points the dominant white supremacist, Eurocentric society wants us to believe are true in order to support their agenda, are actually true within the rules of the fictional universes they create and own.
So within their white-created fictional universes, it's true that human biological theory represents the so-called 'evolution' of stupid spiritual brown people UP INTO smart material-humanist white people. Look across all of their universes and you will find humans on distant worlds are white people (with maybe a li'l island of Blacks tucked away under a corner somewhere to shut the activists up). As a blatant slap in the face to the facts of history, white-created fictional universes ignore the contributions of the Black-dominated civilizations of the past that the real world Western Civilization built upon to attain its technological marvels, and they certainly ignore the many Black heroes that had major influence in building up the Industrial Revolution and the Information Age. According to what the white creators BELIEVE, the 'truth' within their fiction is that Blacks were just sitting around for aeons waiting for whites to kick start civilization. When they are forced to confront the undeniable evidence of technologically-advanced Black Civilizations of olde, then okay, that's where characters like The Celestials come in, or a newly caucasian-featured Apocalypse shows up. lol
lol Just focusing my thoughts on it like this to describe it is pissing me off. hahaha Basically, the opposing side's argument points -- in every racism debate I've been in since Darren Wilson was found not guilty -- are actual truths inside of white-owned, white-BELIEVED fictional tales. At the beginning of Kingdom Come (Waid & Ross), when Gotham City was introduced, who were the "thugs" that Bruce Wayne's "Bat Sentinels" went after? Do you remember? Whites thought it was sooooooooooooooooo funny.
Muhammad Rasheed - Even when Black creators are hired into that machine, the editorial control makes sure they don't damage the matrix of white supremacist ideology that holds that universe together. Ronald Wimberly wrote a great essay detailing the straight up bullshit that happened when he decided to color a Latina character (who was otherwise undefined) as a Black woman. Ronald's white woman editor, in her role as 'Agent Smith' to keep Ronald from fucking up The Matrix, pushed to make the character a white Latina to fit with racist society indoctrination "norms."
Muhammad Rasheed - In another thread, I noticed you singing the praises of a manga property...
Dave wrote: "This dude here is my most favorite superpowered black man in fiction at the moment. Not Blue Marvel, Not Luke Cage. Calvin Ellis comes close. But the Raikage is my favorite. His no fucks attitude, leadership position and high power scale is what made the difference as most black characters imo tend to feel either neutered or underpowered. Both in attitude and power scale. To those that question the blonde hair I humbly ask you to look up the Melanesians."
With my curiosity piqued I went to look him up. What I found was a line of powerful village leaders who started off Black with dark hair, with one blond/blue-eyed caucasian Raikage apprearing and being "renowned to be the greatest Raikage the village has ever had" (i guess the creator was a YUGE/BIGLY Eminem fan), and then all subsequent Raikage leaders having brown skin but blond hair. lol In addition to this highly-symbolic foolishness & fuckery, I find that "Raikage" means "lightning shadow," which treats melanated people as odd and unusual by default.
Once again we find a fictional universe that treats as concrete truth what the real world racist powers are desperate for the populace to believe as true. That's what I hate most about modern comics, is that they pretty much across the board function as little more than propaganda for my traditional enemy. But that's true for all mainstream properties across all media.
Dave Cotton - @M. Rasheed... And as one of the examples of the generation gap that I often referred to, you unfortunately proved it. 1. Naruto is an Asian product. 2. The village is based on Black Lightning and Black Panther references. In my response I mentioned to look up the Melanesians, who are the closest black people to Japan
Now I get it many of us hate the blonde hair due to what it can represent. From Spike in the X-Men animated series, to Aqualad currently we don't like it, but instead of slamming down on it I knew enough to know that the Cloud Village is based on Asian blacks which are the Melanesians. I don't leave certain information there for it to be ignored to make a point. Lastly Lightning Shadow is a Ninja name, names like that have always been common to Ninja names. Why do I like the character 1. He's the leader of an entire kingdom of mostly black people. 2. He's a powerful character compared to most black characters that I come across, even the ones who are created by black people and he isn't a Superman analogue like Icon, Blue Marvel or Calvin Ellis. 4. Lastly they make so many Black Comics references to the village and the way he is treated on the show is with the utmost respect as their village is the only one that is not fraught with corruption like the other places are, to the point where they are the ones who are the leaders during their big War where all the other villages and Nations make his country the leader. Now if Melanesians don't count as black people to you, I don't know what to say. Its not like there aren't any dark haired black people in the village.
Dave Cotton - I reiterate, the closest black people to Japan are these people. They wouldn't make stories about them? Again, please do not ignore the other information I listed to prove your point. Its intellectually dishonest. Naruto is a show about Ninjas, he's a Ninja on the show. Ninjas have names like Lightning Shadow.
Dave Cotton - Blacks from the Solomon Islands, also near Asia
Dave Cotton - I don't know about you but I'd rather my characters have names like Lightning Shadow instead of Black Lightning.
Dave Cotton - Now let me ask you Muhammad Rasheed do you think Japan should not be making stories about the Asians that live closest to them like the Melanesians and Solomon Islands in favor of more African Americans?
Muhammad Rasheed -
Muhammad Rasheed - I'm not pushing back on what you found exciting in the Raikage, Dave. That's not my argument; I understand why people would like what they like. I'm pointing out what aspects support that one thing I hate about modern comics. Fleshing out Brandon's answer further. I didn't intend for you to feel like I was attacking you. When I address these points, it's just from my own perspective, not as a tear down against you, please. We're good.
Dave Cotton - I don't consider it to be a tear down. What I consider it to be is ignoring information. We have to listen to each other. I got your point and in the case of a Spike and Aqualad I 100 percent agree with you, but when I saw members of the cloud village especially one in particular I said "Oh, they are Melenasians, that would make sense for a black kingdom in Asia. So I don't consider them part of the white supremacy narrative because it makes sense for the black people of Asia - to look like the black people of Asia.
Muhammad Rasheed - Dave wrote: "1. Naruto is an Asian product."
I know. I don't see how that would exempt them from being supporters of white supremacy though. The Japanese are kind of famous for not giving a crap about using all that old mammie/coon imagery from the slavery/jim crow era, and are pretty insensitive about it. After WW2, they formally apologized to the West for daring to challenge their White Supremacist Imperialism machine, agreed to dismantle their standing army, and became permanent supporters of everything the western powers wanted to do. I don't see how saying that "Naruto is an Asian product" would automatically mean there wouldn't be any offensive racist stuff in it. To me, that would actually be out of character based on the historical record.
Dave wrote: "2. In my response I mentioned to look up the Melanesians..."
I know them. They are notable as one of many Black native peoples found all over the world, often hidden among the mainstream "face" groups. They are the pure remnants of the original migrants out of Africa.
Dave wrote: "Now I get it many of us hate the blonde hair due to what it can represent."
I actually don't hate it at all, but I do hate it when Black folk gush all over it like it's the best stuff EVER. That clear demonstration of self-hatred is certainly hate worthy. I don't dislike whites for no other reason than because they are white people. I hate the White Supremacist Ideology, and any and everything it touches.
Dave wrote: "...but instead of slamming down on it I knew enough to know that the Cloud Village is based on Asian blacks which are the Melanesians. I don't leave certain information there for it to be ignored to make a point."
To me, the part you wanted me to celebrate was tainted with the insertion of the white-skinned Kaikage who was magically considered the best one of them all, but also had to have marked, with the blond hair trait, all subsequent Kaikage that followed him. Why in the world would I want to praise something like that? That makes me want to throw the whole thing away as exactly the type of foulness I hate.
Dave wrote: "Lastly Lightning Shadow is a Ninja name, names like that have always been common to Ninja names."
I understand. In this case, by attaching it to specifically Black characters, it makes it come across like they are trying to shine a spotlight on their Blackness, for the same reason 1970s Jewish TV writers had to add "Black" to the name of every single character they made. It's also foul-smelling and exploitative.
Dave wrote: "Why do I like the character"
You did an excellent job of explaining that the first time; it's why I went to look him up.
Dave wrote: "Lastly they make so many Black Comics references to the village..."
When those same references are problematic in their own right, that doesn't inherently make doing so a good thing. Mainstream Black characters written by whites don't make me beam with pride. Should they? I'm not one to stand around begging for begrudgingly tossed off scraps from off of someone else's table.
Dave wrote: "...and the way he is treated on the show is with the utmost respect [...] Nations make his country the leader."
Dave wrote: "Now if Melanesians don't count as black people to you, I don't know what to say."
That's a strawman effigy fallacy, since it was never my point. The problem I saw was there was this line of powerful Black leaders whose most awesome and most renowned of them all happened to be the white one. lol If you don't understand why that would be an infuriating taint to me, I'm the one who doesn't know what to say. I understand that you are a big, BIG fan of the property, and are necessarily protective over it.
Muhammad Rasheed - Dave wrote: "I don't know about you but I'd rather my characters have names like Lightning Shadow instead of Black Lightning."
lol Well, in this particular context, they function exactly the same. A "darkness" reference reserved specifically for the Blacks. Are there any other non-Black ninja clans in that universe who don't have "shadow" in their names?
Muhammad Rasheed - Dave wrote: "What I consider it to be is ignoring information."
It wasn't ignored, Dave. The part you were celebrating was indeed the part that piqued my curiosity and made me research them. That part was acknowledged.
Dave wrote: "...but when I saw members of the cloud village especially one in particular I said 'Oh, they are Melenasians, that would make sense for a black kingdom in Asia.'"
And I agree. That specific aspect does make sense, but they ruined it by making that trait come from, not only a white figure that popped up in an otherwise Black line, but by making that white character the best of them all. lol That was the point where I took my curiosity back.
Dave wrote: "So I don't consider them part of the white supremacy narrative because it makes sense for the black people of Asia - to look like the black people of Asia."
Does it make sense that the best of them was one white guy that showed up, or that their blond hair came from that same white dude? Because that's what the writers did.
Dave Cotton - All the best ninja in the village are black, all of them. Those other characters are from different villages. Now as far as them not being the best of the show I can agree and that is why we have to be the best on ours.
Muhammad Rasheed - I'm talking about among the Kaikage themselves. In their line of tribal leaders, one of them was mysteriously a white guy, who is celebrated in the narrative history as the best Kaikage of all. He's the one that intro'd the blond hair into the line of Kaikage.
You don't see how I would find that problematic and irritating from a pro-Black point of view?
Dave Cotton - Not if you know the history behind it. Black people in Asia look like that. But we can agree to disagree.
Muhammad Rasheed - I've already acknowledged that I was already familiar with the Melanesians. That's not the point of contention. My problem is that:
1.) The best of of them all was the white guy
2.) The blond hair in that tribe came from that white guy
That's not where those people's blond hair comes from, and that's not how recessive genes work either. So for the writers to do this not only doesn't make sense in basic science, but they bend over backwards in order to create story points that serve zero purpose other than to support the white supremacist ideology. Stuff like that stands out to me.
Dave Cotton - I also don't expect non black people to make something pro black. For what they are I think they did a hellova job. The pro black in me was happy to see Melanesians
Muhammad Rasheed - Those are their own people, and they shitted on them to support a foreigner's ideology. A foreigner that hates their guts.
Dave Cotton - As I said, I don't expect non blacks to make something pro black, just like I don't expect you to make something pro white. I will give credit where credit is due.
Muhammad Rasheed - The Melanesians are the Japanese's own people and are their own genetic ancestors. They are certainly closer to them than the Europeans are, so why taint the Melanesian history with that befouled pro-white stuff?
Dave Cotton - That's a genre issue. Fact is that despite it all the character has a great place to me in the world for the fact that they are non black.The world respects them even though they don't look like anyone else. They make lots of references to black comic characters and black culture, including our music. For a non black work I was impressed. Now as far something pro black that's my job to create. Not theirs.
Dave Cotton - To expect something pro black from them is like expecting something pro white from a black creator. Personally I can't think of a white superhero character made by a black creator, or even asian one that is treated with the same respect.
Dave Cotton - For me, they made a cool black character even though they aren't black. Name one cool non black character made by black creators.
Dave Cotton - A well loved non black character. Black people cosplay as Naruto's black characters. For me that's pretty damn cool
Dave Cotton - Here is a sister from the same village
Dave Cotton - Here is her daughter
Muhammad Rasheed - I agree that it's cool to have a property achieve that level of super success. It's not so cool when said property contains elements that support the highly toxic White Supremacist Ideology though.
Muhammad Rasheed - The LAST thing the populace needs is more of that indoctrination...
Dave Cotton - *nods*
Dave Cotton - That's what we are for right?
Muhammad Rasheed - Hopefully.
Muhammad Rasheed - Seems like the vast majority of Black creators are too busy caping for the mainstream stuff and desperately hoping to break in there. They're more mesmerized by all that than they are filling the pro-Black void unfortunately. But I have hope that it can change.