Sunday, December 24, 2017
Milton Davis - Name a television show you used to watch back in the day that when you see it now you think it's terrible.
I'll start. Welcome Back Kotter. Why did I think this show was funny?
Muhammad Rasheed - Every. Single. Show. All of them.
I watched them religiously as a kid and they ALLLL sucked. None of them match the fondness within my memory.
Michael Daniels - The westerns (The Rifleman, Gunsmoke, Bananza) still hold up for me, as does The Twilight Zone.
Muhammad Rasheed - I can't imagine Westerns holding up ever. lol You know there were Black people around in those days, right?
Muhammad Rasheed - Like... ACTUAL Black people. Not like props, or background paintings or whatever.
Michael Daniels - I probably know better than you.
Muhammad Rasheed - lol What was the time period that these shows were produced again?
Muhammad Rasheed - lol
Michael Daniels - Fifties and sixties
Muhammad Rasheed - "Like... ACTUAL Black people. Not like props, or background paintings or whatever."
Muhammad Rasheed - A white person's interpretation of a Black person counts as a "prop."
ESPECIALLY in the '50s and '60s.
Michael Daniels - Are you mad that Lucas McCain didnt have an interacial son? Most of the black males were cowboys....Bonanza and Rifleman were about rachers and their families
Muhammad Rasheed - I'm not mad that you like the westerns. I'm just saying I disagree with whether they held up to any kind of anything to measure holding up to. lol
TV shows from the past were shit, and were racist as shit.
Muhammad Rasheed - Certainly the ones from very important time periods in Black History that pretended Blacks didn't exist because of the inconvenient truth not aligning with the whiteness narrative of Hollywood storytellers.
Michael Daniels - They hold up as good storytelling and are well acted.
Muhammad Rasheed - I'm not mad that you like the westerns. Enjoy, Deac.
Michael Daniels - Blacks existed, but if they were depicted as how they really were in that time period you wouldnt like it either.
Muhammad Rasheed - I love and prefer documentaries. I would never be mad at telling me the truth. Those old storytellers don't know what that word means though, and why I can't join you.
Michael Daniels - Black men in the old west were predominantly cowboys meaning they herded cattle over long stretches of land to butcher yards. Many of the black women in the west were prostitutes and saloon girls.
Michael Daniels - There were attempts to start black townships in the west but those were stamped out fairly quickly. Most towns in the old west were NOT integrated and showing them to be so on a TV show would be the biggest fiction.
Muhammad Rasheed - This excerpted clip from a presentation on Black Women in the Old West paints a different picture of what the majority of them were doing at the time than what you typed. Yours sounds like you were trying to slander them out of defense for the shows you like.
I wouldn't expect tv shows or popular literature about the West to say that old towns back then were integrated, since the norm was to white wash Blacks out of the regular narrative. I also wouldn't expect someone that grew up watching those kinds of jim crow era produced westerns with fondness to be open to the idea of "You know there were Black people around in those days, right?"
I'm also not surprised that in your kneejerk defense of what you love, your instinct was to paint the Blacks of the time in a bad light from your Christian lens.
Michael Daniels - It actually paints the same picture in the beginning and then highlights the exceptions. I'm not really interested in what you would expect, the reality is more important and that reality had black folks struggling in the old west. Free black women had very few options, exceptions notwithstanding. There were servants and nannies and these roles cropped up from time to time on the shows, but race relations between blacks and whites wasn't the point of those shows and it doesn't have to be for a show to be entertaining.
Muhammad Rasheed - Michael wrote: "It actually paints the same picture in the beginning..."
No, it doesn't. It didn't say anything about "prostitutes and saloon girls," but the opposite.
Muhammad Rasheed - Michael wrote: "...the reality is more important..."
Michael wrote: "...and that reality had black folks struggling in the old west."
Everyone struggled in those days, since it was right after the bloodiest war in American history, and the country was being rebuilt. Those shows didn't show any reality as far as the Blacks were concerned.
Michael wrote: "Free black women had very few options, exceptions notwithstanding."
The clip said very pointedly what the majority of them WERE doing, and THEN listed those exceptions. It then mentioned all the maid and servant positions they filled after that.
Michael wrote: "...but race relations between blacks and whites wasn't the point of those shows..."
lol Oh, I know. That's why they don't hold up to reality.
Michael wrote: "...and it doesn't have to be for a show to be entertaining."
Whether something is entertaining or not is subjective, innit?
Michael Daniels - Now you're just being ridiculous. Whether or not a show discusses race is not the linchpin of whether it holds up. It may be the case for you but for most educated people it's not. Btw, all of these shows did deal with race from time to time but more from the Native American standpoint than black.
Muhammad Rasheed - Michael wrote: "Now you're just being ridiculous."
*snort* I find your nostalgic defense of racist bs to be ridiculous. Now we're even.
Michael wrote: "Whether or not a show discusses race is not the linchpin of whether it holds up."
If a show is firmly within the trend of lying to me to support white supremacy's bs narrative, then it doesn't hold up.
Michael wrote: "It may be the case for you but for most educated people it's not."
What kind of "education" would that be? White supremacist indoctrination? That figures. #EscapeTheMatrix
Michael wrote: "Btw, all of these shows did deal with race from time to time but more from the Native American standpoint than black."
lol Sure. A jim crow era produced western tv show "dealt with race." I'll bet.
Michael Daniels - So a show about a man raising his son who shoots bank robbers from time to time is somehow lying to you about race. Would you be happy if more of the outlaws he killed were black.
Muhammad Rasheed - Why would I be happy about that? Wouldn't that be more of the same? They either scrub the record of the presence of Blacks, or when they do show them, give them all the "deplorable" roles. You're asking me if turning the plate around to the other thing racist storytellers always serve would make me happy. Is that the only other option your "educated" mind could conjure then?
Call me "ridiculous" again. :)
Michael Daniels - The Rifleman Deals With Racism
In this episode Lucas has Mark spend time with someone from another culture to allay prejudice.
Muhammad Rasheed - lol I said, "I'll bet."
Do you really want me to watch it and dissect it? 'Cause I'm POSITIVE it will be some some straight-up nonsense that doesn't hold up.
Michael Daniels - You're straight-up ridiculous.
Muhammad Rasheed - That's fine, Deac. I'll refrain from saying what you are straight-up coming across as in this thread to me.
Michael Daniels - That's fine, Mo. I see your need to make everything about race hampers your ability to enjoy a good story. You have my sympathy.
Muhammad Rasheed - ???
Everything is already about race. I didn't make it up. I just don't believe in the "respectability politics" of pretending that elephant isn't always in every room. This is the United States of America. Actual educated people are indeed aware that everything is about race. That's why you have the president you currently have, because it's all about race.
Muhammad Rasheed - A "good story" doesn't shove the white supremacist ideology down my throat, and otherwise good stories cease being good the moment the writer dips into that pot.
Michael Daniels - The story is about a man raising his son in the old west. His backstory is that he fought for the north in the civil war, his wife died of typhoid fever and he is trying to start over. How and why that story threatens or even impacts your black sensibilities is beyond me.
Muhammad Rasheed - Michael wrote: "How and why that story threatens or even impacts your black sensibilities is beyond me..."
Well, your confusion about that makes sense if you frame it around the parts of the story that the jim crow era writers want you to focus on, while deliberately ignoring what was going on in the time period's real world. "You know there were Black people around in those days, right?" was your clue. Mentioning that "he fought for the north in the civil war" without dealing with what that actually meant in the show, is whitewash racism in action (in literature, educated people refer to that particular whitewash as the "Lost Cause").
Enjoy your westerns, Deac. It's fine.
Michael Daniels - Except you don't knowhow that was dealt with in story because you never watched it. And labelling someone a Jim Crow era writer makes as much sense as calling you a Trump era artist. Each writer and work should be judged on its own merit.
Michael Daniels - Enjoy your.....hatred?
Muhammad Rasheed - Michael wrote: "Except you don't knowhow that was dealt with in story because you never watched it."
I know the history of racism issues in television. I know the history of creating fake non-issue strawmen and having the characters "deal with race" from a standpoint of political expediency that doesn't offend the racist audience/sponsors.
Michael wrote: "And labelling someone a Jim Crow era writer makes as much sense as calling you a Trump era artist."
Does it? My art isn't watched over by studio head executives and guided in a way that matches the thread of a very specific narrative that guided all Hollywood scripts up into the present day. I'm an independent.
Muhammad Rasheed - Michael wrote: "Enjoy your.....hatred?"
I only hate the white supremacist ideology and those who support it.
Muhammad Rasheed - I find it interesting that you consider it "hate" that I push back on shows from a time period in which those in charge of that art form made it a regular practice to not include me in stuff.
If my protest is the definition of "hatred" then what do you call...? Oh, that's right. You broke your neck painting Blacks from the Old West in a negative light and pretended it was truth.
Enjoy your westerns, Deac. It's fine.
Michael Daniels - No....that only means your art is guided by your own biases and limited understanding w hich have been guided by your own fears and hurts both real and percieved.
Muhammad Rasheed - What does the "No" part mean? No, I'm not an independent?
Michael Daniels - I did no such thing. I gave you a a sample of the reality of the old west for black folks based on a lot of research and an unbiased historical perpective. You found a youtube clip that cherrypicked the exceptions.
Muhammad Rasheed - Michael wrote: "I did no such thing."
Meanwhile, that's precisely what you did.
Michael wrote: "I gave you a a sample of the reality of the old west for black folks..."
You actually framed it as if it was the norm for Black people. You were deliberately trying to give the impression that it made up the bulk of the lives of Blacks living in the Old West. That the men were all tearing up the land and all the women folk were whores.
Michael wrote: "...based on a lot of research and an unbiased historical perpective."
You've done no research on Black lives in the Old West. You were content to swallow the white-scrubbed version of the Old West packaged by white people because it matched the nostalgic trip of watching the shows you've enjoyed from your childhood.
Michael wrote: "You found a youtube clip that cherrypicked the exceptions."
Meanwhile, the clip explained what the bulk of Blacks were doing before it started listing the exceptional personalities, and then after that, it mentioned that most of the women got maid/servant jobs, which is very different from what you typed about it.
Michael Daniels - If you can't enjoy a story in which the protagonist and his son don't have an acceptable level of melanin in his skin then unfortunately youre missing out on some absolutely monumental books movies shows music and even life. Such a shame you have this hang u p, Mo.
Muhammad Rasheed - There's a difference between insisting that the protagonist of a western be a Black person, versus insisting that the western actually reflect that Black people had a huge presence in the time period -- a presence focused on very specific reasons that were vital to how the country is shaped. The norm from both Hollywood and popular literature is to pretend that Blacks didn't have much presence at all by whitewashing history in the usual fashion. I don't believe in going along with that and you, like my white racist opponents, refer to that position as "hatred."
Muhammad Rasheed - From my point-of-view, the hang up is your own.
Michael Daniels - Nope, a peer reviewed article on the subject a few years back. Btw I was specifically referring to free black women and men. Those women w ho were servants and nannies werent free and neither were the majority of the ones within the Native American system.
Michael Daniels - I didnt refer to it as hatred I asked you if it was? I dont know what to call what you have.
Muhammad Rasheed - Michael wrote: "Nope..."
Michael wrote: "...a peer reviewed article..."
Sure. *roll eyes*
Michael wrote: "Btw I was..."
Michael Daniels - I could produce the article easily enough. Everything Ive written in the last decade is somewhere on my harddrive, but Im laying in bed on my phone.
Muhammad Rasheed - Michael wrote: "I didnt refer to it as hatred I asked you if it was?"
Did it seem like "hate" that it made you ask the question? What about it means "hate?"
Michael wrote: "I dont know what to call what you have."
Well, there's enough parallels between your responses and those of my ideological enemy to give me an accurate phrase for what you have.
Muhammad Rasheed - In the context of this thread discussion, please define "hate" in your own words.
Michael Daniels - When someone judges a person or thing as bad without actually experiencing that person or thing its often referred to as hate. Thats what youre doing w ith these shows only knowing the time period in which th e y were written.
Michael Daniels - Thats why i asked.
Alesia Swan - @Michael Daniels... I’m not sure on what you based your opinion that Black women of the Old West were primarily sex workers. Some basic research finds that “The period from the late eighteenth century to the early 1900s, he found women who were activists, farmers, true pioneers, army wives, gold hunters, mail order brides, black Indians, servants, and business owners in all areas of the West, from the early frontiers in Indiana and Ohio to later settlements in the Northwest, Southwest, and far North.” This excerpt was taken from the book Black Women in the West.
Michael Daniels - Im not hung up on anything. I have the ability to freely appreciate art on its own merit.
Muhammad Rasheed - Michael wrote: "When someone judges a person or thing as bad without actually experiencing that person or thing its often referred to as hate. Thats what youre doing w ith these shows only knowing the time period in which th e y were written."
1.) Black had a huge presence in the Old West
2.) It was a volatile time period between the races because it was fresh after the Civil War, and the white supremacist terror groups were revving up to lead to the repealing of Reconstruction, which was a HUGE hot button at the time
3.) The "lost cause" was the active effort to reframe the Civil War narrative as having nothing to do with "the Black problem" that was in fact its center, as well as the time period directly after which includes the Old West.
4.) Those shows don't show a strong Black presence by design, and certainly don't talk about the major hot button items that were saturated throughout that real world.
5.) As a Black person, I'm tired of racist mess exactly like that, and I'm unwilling to aid you in glorifying problematic fundamentally racist claptrap from the problematic past because you want to cherry-pick out all the parts that make you warm & fuzzy about your dad.
6.) Racism is bad. Stories that serve no practical purpose other than helping create the narrative of Whiteness are BAD.
Michael Daniels - @Ms Swan...Im familiar with that book. I may even have it on my shelf. Im not sure where I said they were predominantly sex workers. That was an embellishment Mo provided as he is wont to do. I said that many of them were prostitutes (in the mining camps) and saloon girls.
Muhammad Rasheed - Michael wrote: "Im not sure where I said they were predominantly sex workers. That was an embellishment Mo provided as he is wont to do."
Michael Daniels - 1. Black men made up about one third of the cowboys (cattledrivers) in the old west yes. And there were black sharecroppers and homesteaders and the occasional landowner but we were not prevalent. Many many old west towns were not integrated. They were racist as fuck. Dude, my Dad grew up on a cattle ranch in the 1940s and 50s and never saw a black person until he moved to California.
Michael Daniels - You just pointed out and circled what I just reitterated.
Muhammad Rasheed - I circled and pointed out the part where you implied all the Black women were sex workers.
Michael Daniels - 2. Yes, a good chunk of those displaced racist Southerners moved out west and continued to oppress and exclude blacks.
Muhammad Rasheed - YOU: "...but if they were depicted as how they REALLY were you wouldn't like it."
YOU: "THEY WERE PROSTITUTES!!!"
Muhammad Rasheed - How else is what you said to be translated, deac? lol
Michael Daniels - It is neither stated explicitly or implied. As I said thats your embellishment.
Muhammad Rasheed - Anytime you want to start using a little integrity today, Rev.
Muhammad Rasheed - Bald-faced lying doesn't look good on you. It's pretty slimy.
Michael Daniels - What I said is clear. For dramatic purposes you want to make it mean something other than whats there CIRCLED in black and white.
Muhammad Rasheed - Enjoy your western nostalgic trip, but don't stand here and pretend that shit wasn't racist as fuck.
Do ACTUAL research and actually learn history and then start running your lying-ass, non-integrity having pie hole.
Muhammad Rasheed - Michael wrote: "What I said is clear."
Yeah! VERY clear. Jackass.
Michael Daniels - Im glad you dont have the ability to edit my shit. Im sure you would insidiously change where i said many to predominantly or all. Th a ts just low, especi a lly for a devout Muslim, Muhammed.
Muhammad Rasheed - ...said the lying, non-integrity having jackass "Reverend."
Muhammad Rasheed - Bye, Deac. I'm rapidly getting tired of you and that worthless ass Kirby.
Muhammad Rasheed - RACISM IS BAD.
Muhammad Rasheed - It really is. That's not just in my head.
Michael Daniels - Get some rest my friend. Im sorry I didnt say wh a t you wanted me t o say.
Muhammad Rasheed - It's 1pm over here. YOU get some rest.
Muhammad Rasheed - And stop trying to boss me around! >:(
Michael Daniels - There were black p e ople in England too. Do I have to kick my boy Sherlock Holmes to the curb? What about MiddleEarth and Narnia? Are they off limits too?
Michael Daniels - I didnt know you were still over there. Btw, not really a Reverend anymore with or without the quotes.
Muhammad Rasheed - You don't have to kick anything to the curb. I said "enjoy your westerns, it's fine" about a thousand times.
Just don't try to pull nonsense out of your butt about history not being history just because you love those old shows.
Muhammad Rasheed - It was your blatant and selfish defense of evil that pissed me off.
Muhammad Rasheed - I hold nostalgic trips over a lot of problematic stuff I grew up on, sure. But I'm never going to defend the problematic aspects of it JUST because of the fondness I hold for those old properties.
Step up and be righteous! Don't side with evil! Are you CRAZY????
Muhammad Rasheed - (i'm too old to get this angry. i think you just tried to kill me)
Michael Daniels - I dont defend evil. We live in a racist system. The natural conclusion from y our standpoint is every book movie or piece of a r t that doesnt acknowledge that explicitly is evil by association. I merely refuse to be shackled by that mindset.
Michael Daniels - History is history. I have a fair and solid grasp of it. I dont whitewash it nor do I ignore the truth of it based on skin color.
Muhammad Rasheed - You're shackled by siding along with the white supremacists to add to the "Lost Cause" narrative of removing Black people from the historic record in the areas that makes whites look bad if you tell it the way it really happened. That includes the Civil War, Reconstruction, and your beloved Old West.
By accepting the way THEY tell those tales, people like you react the way you do when it is pointed out those stories are whitewashed.
Michael Daniels - I didnt react any kind of way. You seem to think the old west was some type of wonderful melting pot where blacks and whites got on swimmingly. And incongruously you dont think a good story can be t old without it being based on race.
Muhammad Rasheed - Michael wrote: "I didnt react any kind of way."
You don't think getting defensive and pushing back on the lack of depicted Blacks protest by implying all the Black women were whores in order to get me to drop it wasn't a reaction, huh? What do YOU call it then?
Michael wrote: "You seem to think the old west was some type of wonderful melting pot where blacks and whites got on swimmingly."
I'm pretty sure I'm the one that brought up the white supremacist terror groups part of the narrative. I can't see how that could be considered a "melting pot" of "swimmingly."
So am I swimming in a melting pot La-La Land or am I exhibiting "hatred?" Which is it?
Michael wrote: "And incongruously you dont think a good story can be t old without it being based on race."
I don't think a "good story" can be told if it is centered in supporting the carefully protected over-arching narrative of white supremacy, no. Cherry-pick out the pieces you like, and let that be your truth. A racist lie designed to hurt you in the real world doesn't make good story material.
Michael Daniels - You saying I said something over and over doesnt make it true, especially when you took the time to circle what I really said in red.
Look up incongruously when you get a chance. You're right, you're talking out of both sides of your neck.
Kristopher Michael Mosby - Damn, y'all!!!!!
Michael Daniels - Couldn't sleep. -_-
Muhammad Rasheed - Michael wrote: "Look up incongruously when you get a chance."
Look up "lack of integrity" when YOU get a chance, and work harder to unfuck yourself. Maybe you'll get to be a Reverend again.
Michael Daniels - Typical, you can't win an argument. You cant make me say what I didnt say so you curse at me and attack me personally. Look buddy, it's my integrity that's keeping me from responding in kind. I wont attack you so say whatever mean thing youd like.
Muhammad Rasheed - "Talking out of both sides of your neck" is a demonstration of you winning an argument and NOT attacking?
How does that work?
Michael Daniels - (I'm not a minister right now due to health reasons. Thanks a lot Mo for throwing that in my face.)
Muhammad Rasheed - You're welcome.
Michael Daniels - Its me pointing out that youre saying two different things that contradict each other. Thats an apt description of your argument, not a personal attack.
Muhammad Rasheed - If you only meant that a small percentage of Black women were prostitutes, then why present it in the way you did as a response? Did you believe I didn't think ANY Black women were ever prostitutes in the entire Old West time period or something, and that me finding out it was going on at all would shock me?
Otherwise, what you are trying to convince me you didn't say, doesn't make a lick of sense.
Muhammad Rasheed - And now you are pretending the entire discussion is hinged on this one tiny point, which is also a lack-of-integrity display/logical fallacy.
Michael Daniels - My point was in the context of our discussion the most likely black person you'd see in the shows that I listed was as a cowboy (male) or saloon girl (female). That might have been historically authentic but including them in the background from time to time (which now that I think about it they actually did) would not have added to the quality of the narrative of a single father raising his son in the old west.
Muhammad Rasheed - Michael wrote: "My point was in the context of our discussion..."
The context was that you built it up by saying how much I wouldn't like it if they depicted Blacks how they REALLY were. lol Obviously you were very being very ominous in trying to say that it was negative.
Michael wrote: "...the most likely black person you'd see in the shows that I listed was as a cowboy (male)..."
Which you said they'd always be leading the cows to slaughter, as if I was a vocal member of PETA. I wouldn't like it if Black men were depicted as cowboys, huh? Why, Deac? Why wouldn't I?
Michael wrote: "...or saloon girl (female)."
You led with "prostitutes" but now you're pulling back from that and trying to soften it by only putting out the saloon girl part. Curious. Naturally that would be another point deducted from whatever integrity you may have left.
Michael wrote: "That might have been historically authentic..."
Well, stop, since Alesia's quote from 'Black Women in the Old West' revealed there were about a trillion other things they would more likely have been doing instead.
You can't sleep, but your foolishness is making ME tired.
Michael Daniels - I doubt this will end the argument or illicit an apology from you. You just don't have the gumption to do that. But here you go. This episode even encompasses black people's mistrust of law enforcement.
Muhammad Rasheed - Michael wrote: "but including them in the background from time to time (which now that I think about it they actually did)..."
I doubt it.
Michael wrote: "...would not have added to the quality of the narrative of a single father raising his son in the old west."
Sure it would have, because it would have made the tale authentic. Racists don't appear magically out of thin air, they are actually raised by the previous generation of racists in the usual cycle.
Muhammad Rasheed - Michael wrote: "I doubt this will end the argument..."
The argument could have ended after the first time I said, "Enjoy your westerns, Deac. It's fine."
Michael wrote: "...or illicit an apology from you."
You may apologize for lying that you didn't make the claim that all Old West Black women were whores.
Michael wrote: "You just don't have the gumption to do that."
I said, "I'll bet." I even saw the link to the other episode clip you posted. Two episodes in which jim crow era writers "deal with" race is problematic since the time period was saturated with that topic, it was the birth of white domestic terror in the aftermath of the Civil War. Two half-assed episodes designed not to piss off a racist ass viewing audience out of (how many?) is definitely not enough.
Michael Daniels - Just a little bit, Muhammed?
Muhammad Rasheed - A little bit of what?
Michael Daniels - I had a whole long post and only that part showed up. Dont know why. Dont feel like typing it again.
Muhammad Rasheed - You can't type that stuff in here, you have to do it in Word or Notepad and copy/paste it over.
Muhammad Rasheed - Give me your summary bullets, and I'm sure I'll be able to get the gist of your new stir-fried bullshit you wanted to say. lol
Michael Daniels - It will never be enough. And your grasp of history of the old west is as problematic as your understanding of Christian history. Race relations between blacks and whites were not prominent concerns in the old west. There werr much more pressing issus, such as droughts and relations with native Americans which were featured on these shows quite frequently.
Michael Daniels - Im on my phone...in my bed, still.
Muhammad Rasheed - Michael wrote: "Race relations between blacks and whites were not prominent concerns in the old west."
That's the "Lost Cause" deliberate scrubbing of the record in action that you have taken ownership of. And now we've come back full circle.
Your "research" is shit.
Racism, the breaking and plundering and disenfranchisement of the African-American recently freed slave, the resentments built up over the rights granted to the freedmen, as well as the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people killed in the Civil War to free them, was THE number one hot button of the time period. But you believe the false story the whites invented about it.
And we're done now.
Michael wrote: "...is as problematic as your understanding of Christian history"
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