Muhammad Rasheed - Statistically speaking, how well do the top level Mexican boxers do against the top level Black American boxers?
I ask because the pro-Canelo crowd seems so SURE that he's going to defeat Crawford, but is that hope technically realistic? What are they basing this hope on outside of pure hyped up emotions?
Kevin SwitchHitz Leon - What do you mean is that hope technically realistic? So you think Canelo beating Bud is unrealistic?
And historically, blacks will trump over Mexicans. But that’s not to say Mexicans are inferior in any way. They also have great fighters and are a top 5 nation in boxing.
Muhammad Rasheed - Kevin wrote: "What do you mean is that hope technically realistic?"
Meaning that the traditional Mexican boxing style is pretty easy for the 'slick' Black American fighter to figure out, so much so that there have been many Black American boxers who made a career out of specializing in fighting only Mexican fighters.
Kevin wrote: "So you think Canelo beating Bud is unrealistic?"
No, because there's always the "puncher's chance" at play that can contribute to the high-drama of the 'Theater of the Unexpected.' I just think what's realistic is the also certainty that Bud will give a masterclass and embarrass Canelo with superior skill. Canelo is skilled, the most skilled of probably any Mexican fighter in recent years, but is the greatest Mexican fighter the same as the greatest fighter? If not, then which boxing style most often takes that top spot?
Kevin wrote: "And historically, blacks will trump over Mexicans. But that’s not to say Mexicans are inferior in any way."
I'm not talking about "inferior" in race, or any nonsense like that. I'm talking about using the formula "styles make fights" — who is most often at a clear disadvantage when two particular styles are paired against one another? Mexican fighters have proven that they struggle badly when trying to master the well-rounded folio of skills represented by the Sweet Science, and their response is generally to ignore the skillsets they don't do well in, and to mock the fighters who are good at them. That's where the "running" slur comes from—they can't perform as well at the highest level, therefore, they make fun of the people who do it in a "sour grapes" like resentment.
To me, it seems laughable that people think a motivated Crawford doesn't have a GREAT chance of winning this fight relatively easily considering the nature of the paired styles and quality of opponents.
I have Crawford taking this win.
Josh Fisher - @Muhammad... any style can beat any other style. It’s not about the style, it’s about the athletes applying that style. A fighter using the “Mexican style” can absolutely beat the “slick black American style”. Are there not any slick black Americans on Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. resume? Isn’t there already plenty of slick black fighters on Canelo’s resume that he’s beaten? Does Canelo even use the typical Mexican style? Not really.
Muhammad Rasheed - Josh wrote: "It’s not about the style, it’s about the athletes applying that style"
Here we're talking about the highest level representatives of both styles. Statistically, how do the top greatest Mexican fighters perform against the top greatest Black American fighters?
Josh wrote: "Does Canelo even use the typical Mexican style? Not really."
Canelo incorporates some defense on the inside—more than you usually see from a Mexican boxer, but does that mean he performs it well enough to frustrate Crawford? It's highly unlikely, but we'll see.
Kirk Ford - @Muhammad... THEY HAVE PRIDE IN THEIR FIGHTERS, Ain't Shit Wrong with that!! Really that's a Dumb Question!
Muhammad Rasheed - @Kirk... Trying to get a job in a Mexican gym, huh? lol #ChasingClout #BrownNoser
Kirk Ford - Why the fk, you so stupid boy, it's a True fkn Fact, them mf'ers travel the World to Support their Fighters. When is the First and Last Time you seen a Whole Section of Niggas traveling WorldWide to Support a American born Black Fighter. You DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT THE FIGHT GAME. SO STFU. And for your info, I Already work at LA/ FITNESS. AND GUESS WHAT, DUMB FK. There's LESS BLACK'S trying to Get in Shape than All other Races, and Wanta Know Why, Pride is a Mf'er. WHY You Think American Black's have the worst Heatlh, in the Country. No fkn Pride in themselves. And Bitch the Shit AIN'T Even Funny!! Niggas Got More Pride in their fkn Gym Shoes, than their Bodies, Niggas Got More Pride in their fkn Cars, than their bodies, Niggas got More Pride in their Fkn Clothes, than their bodies, Mf'er Open Your fkn Closed Eyes, and See What's Around Them Closed Ass Eyez you peepn Thru! Takes More Than a Name Change to Become a REAL BLACKMAN. FACTS AND TRUTH RULE
Muhammad Rasheed - Kirk wrote: "And Bitch the Shit AIN'T Even Funny!!"
You don't think it's funny watching you suck tacos out of Mexican ass? 🤔
It's hilarious actually, in a secondhand embarrassment kind of way. You're definitely a clown and a traitor to your own people. I hope you lose your house in gambling debts should Bud win and knock your chico's head off.
Joseph Melendez - They're basing it on the fact that he's moving up 21 lbs, are we seriously making this about race?
Muhammad Rasheed - Joseph wrote: "are we seriously making this about race?"
It's not about "race," it's about the styles traditionally preferred by both camps. One of them prefers to "stand & bang" with very weak & primitive defensive skill, while the other tends to be very well-rounded especially at the elite level, so much so that even elite Mexican boxers mock them as "runners" because they can't compete with a well-rounded elite fighter.
Joseph Melendez - @Muhammad... first off no one at that level has "very weak and primitive defense" unless you're going to make the argument that Roy Jones and Ali had "very weak and primitive defense" just because they weren't very technical and relied more on speed and unorthodox defense. Same with Foreman.
Joseph Melendez - and this is a race thing because you're judging it by "black fighters vs. Mexican fighters" and not by the individuals themselves. As I said before people have faith in Canelo mainly because of the massive jump in weight, or because they're going to ride with Canelo due to Mexico's pride in him. That's really all it is, comparing all Black fighters records against Mexican fighters makes no sense.
Muhammad Rasheed - Joseph wrote: "first off no one at that level has 'very weak and primitive defense'"
One classic example was watching how easily Tommy Hearns dismantled Duran's weak defense. No one would claim that Duran wasn't an elite, but his defense was NOTHING. Even though Duran is Panamanian, but I'm using him as an example of the type. More examples were Juan Manuel Márquez and Robert Guerrero fighting Floyd. They fought at the highest level, yet Floyd penetrated their defense easily.
Joseph wrote: "unless you're going to make the argument that Roy Jones and Ali had 'very weak and primitive defense' just because they weren't very technical and relied more on speed and unorthodox defense."
These are Black American fighters who excelled to GOAT status on pure talent and hard work, which only supports my original point. Their custom styles mimicked the slick well-rounded look in functionality, which gave Hispanic boxers trouble.
Joseph wrote: "Same with Foreman."
Foreman was primitive and underdeveloped, and relied on his punching power through much of his career.
Muhammad Rasheed - Joseph wrote: "and this is a race thing because you're judging it by 'black fighters vs. Mexican fighters' and not by the individuals themselves."
It's not a "race" thing because I said "Black American" which references the American descendants of slavery ethnic group, not other black racial groups like African and Caribbean fighters. It's not about race, but about cultural preferences between the two ethnicities. Remember during the Crawford vs Gamboa fight, when Larry Merchant asked if a fighter from a place that isn't known for producing boxers (Omaha NE) stands a realistic chance against a fighter from a place that is known for producing lots of boxers (Puerto Rico)?
Joseph wrote: "or because they're going to ride with Canelo due to Mexico's pride in him."
Is it good or bad for a bunch of people to have pride in a sportsman because he's one of them?
Joseph wrote: "That's really all it is, comparing all Black fighters records against Mexican fighters makes no sense."
It doesn't make sense because that's a strawman fallacy you made up, since I pointedly compared the two styles as performed by the elite among each group, not "all Black fighters records."
Joseph Melendez - well first of all Duran had phenomenal defense especially at lightweight so you clearly don't know what you're talking about since that is supposed to be common knowledge in boxing circles. Especially when you point to one of his absolute worst performances and not one like his performance against Iran Barkley or that masterclass of boxing that he and Hagler put on together when they fought. Even Marquez was a great defensive counter puncher, his problem is that Mayweather did it significantly better than anyone of that era.
Joseph Melendez - ok so when a black fighter doesn't do things technically proper, it's fine, but when Latino fighters focus more on body work and inside fighting then all of a sudden it's a bad thing. Just to be clear, you making the argument that their defense is primitive, is almost as mind numbingly stupid as someone saying that Mayweather's offense is primitive because he didn't throw a lot of punches after he started having hand issues. Especially when you try and say that Foreman was primitive, no one at that level is primitive in any area, no one makes it that far unless they are solid whether technically or not with their offense and defense.
Joseph Melendez - let me focus on Foreman now, there was nothing primitive about his style, he used many of the same techniques that Ali did only instead of fighting on the outside, Foreman would step in and throw thudding uppercuts and hooks. Foreman was very precise with his footing keeping his opponents off balance by pivoting and side stepping often behind them as they would charge forward causing them to lose their balance especially when he would turn or push them..
He also used his hand speed to deflect incoming punches while often changing the direction of his counter punches catching his opponents off guard and often off balance like he did to Frazier. He was a very well developed fighter, and his speed and techniques were every bit as effective as his power was. For you to sum him up the way that you did speaks to your lack of knowledge on boxing's history and the way styles are used because this stuff is well known.
Joseph Melendez - your literal statement is this "Statistically speaking, how well do the top level Mexican boxers do against the top level Black American boxers?". You weren't asking about styles and if you meant too, then you should try being specific. But to be blunt your following comments where you try to say that a guy like Duran had nothing on defense because of his race doesn't help your case. Especially when Duran's defensive prowess is pretty well known.
Muhammad Rasheed - Joseph wrote: "ok so when a black fighter doesn't do things technically proper, it's fine"
The topic of the thread is whether it is realistic to really expect an elite Mexican fighter to easily defeat an elite Black American fighter due to the fact that elite Black American fighters use a well-rounded style that easily dominates the traditional Mexican style. You brought up Ali and Roy as if they were exceptions to the rule, but their natural talent enabled them to function like slick highly-skilled boxers, which means they could basically coast on their talent and still frustrate Mexican fighters, which supported my point.
Joseph wrote: "but when Latino fighters focus more on body work and inside fighting"
They focus more on "stand & bang" to please the crowd, because the unsophisticated audience doesn't appreciate the well-rounded slick styles, especially among the Mexican fan crowd. They only want to see their own people succeed.
Joseph wrote: "Just to be clear, you making the argument that their defense is primitive"
So much so, that they universally call people who have great defensive skill "runners" for no other reason than because they can't compete at that level.
Joseph wrote: "is almost as mind numbingly stupid as someone saying that Mayweather's offense is primitive because he didn't throw a lot of punches after he started having hand issues."
The claim would be stupid because Floyd threw just enough punches to secure the win. High volume punching is only necessary if you have no clear strategy or plan.
Joseph wrote: "Especially when you try and say that Foreman was primitive"
Foreman was very primitive and underdeveloped, that's why Ali called him "The Mummy."
Joseph wrote: "no one makes it that far unless"
Foreman's great natural talent was his phenomenal punching power, which got him high enough to actually win the title. Wilder performed the same feat in his own era.
Joseph wrote: "let me focus on Foreman now, there was nothing primitive about his style"
Sorry, I have no respect for your analytical skills on these topics. You are led by your emotions, not your intellect. You obviously don't even know what you are looking at when you watch the sport.
Muhammad Rasheed - Joseph wrote: "your literal statement is this 'Statistically speaking, how well do the top level Mexican boxers do against the top level Black American boxers?.' You weren't asking about styles"
I asked to compare top level versus top level statistical performances, but you claimed I compared ALL Black fighters' records, which means you're not even paying attention to the points of the discussion. I can't take that sloppiness seriously.
Joseph wrote: "where you try to say that a guy like Duran had nothing on defense because of his race"
I said that as an elite fighter, his style's defense was so weak that a Black American elite fighter picked apart his defense easily. It sounds like we disagree as to what "race" means. When I say "Black American boxer," I'm only talking about a specific ethnic group—the American Descendants of Slavery (ADOS). I am not including African boxers or Caribbean boxers. If I mean "race" then I would have included them. This is about cultural/heritage preference, not physical "race" phenotype.
Jay To You - @Muhammad... Welp… the two Mexican legends at the top lost to good (Frank Randall, Tim Bradley respectively) and great (Pernell Whitaker whupped Chavez @$$!! Same for Floyd and Marquez.) black fighters.
The two at the bottom lost in their primes to Zahir Raheem (good slick boxer) and Junior Jones respectively. Barrera was getting outboxed by Kennedy McKinley before he KO’d him.
I hope Bud wins and he can win but that weight!!! I wish he at least made Saul sign a rehydration clause.
Muhammad Rasheed - Jay wrote: "I hope Bud wins and he can win but that weight!!!"
Give me an example of a slick and talented boxer losing to a less skilled but larger boxer just because the latter was bigger, please.
Jay To You - the most heartbreaking for a boxing lover like me would be Sugar Ray Robinson vs Joey Maxim.
Ray dropped from heat exhaustion.
Also, Michael Moorer vs Big George. George isn’t all that skilled. He was big, and he hit like a horse kicks. Mike was a highly skilled southpaw HW champ.
If you want another example: Will o the wisp Pep vs Sandy Sadler 1,3-4. Willy Pep was observably the more skilled boxer. But Sandy was a Killer with a capital K.
Muhammad Rasheed - Jay wrote: "Ray dropped from heat exhaustion."
Okay, so it wasn't Maxim overwhelming Robinson with his size, but it was a conditioning issue.
Jay wrote: "Also, Michael Moorer vs Big George. George isn’t all that skilled. He was big, and he hit like a horse kicks. Mike was a highly skilled southpaw HW champ."
Moorer was dominating the big man on pure skill. and caught George's big right hand because he was unfocused.
Jay wrote: "If you want another example"
You didn't give me any examples of what I asked for yet. I'm looking for a match where the bigger guy won because he imposed his bulk on the more skilled fighter who was never in the fight because his opponent was JUST TOO BIG. Give me an example of that.
Don Forsyth - @Muhammad... If you're that sure about it, you should bet everything you have on Bud... All the betting platforms are picking Canelo to win, so you'll get a great return, if Bud does win...
Or... Maybe every betting platform has Canelo as the favorite to win for a reason, despite your black racial superiority hypothesis.
Consider that Bud has done well throughout his career facing weaker opponents that he could manhandle, over-power, and hurt. The first time Bud faced an opponent of comparable strength, Madrimov, he struggled, and barely squeaked out a win, even though Madrimov only had 11 professional fights (and 10 wins) prior to facing Bud. So, it's fair to presume, when Bud is not the stronger man, he struggles.
Now, he is stepping up to face an opponent who is stronger than Bud, younger than Bud, has more experience in the ring and in facing world champions than Bud, and is a more active fighter than Bud, and you expect it to be an easy win for Bud????🤣🤣🤣
You're analyzing this fight as fan of Crawford, instead of being objective.
Also consider that Bud is turning 38 this month. He is at the end of his career. He has 7 kids, why would he put his life or his health at risk this close to retirement??? He's already got belts and he is going into the hall of fame, so the idea that he is doing this for legacy is laughable!
Bud knows that a fight with Canelo is the biggest possible payday he can get, so that is why he is doing it. I belive Bud is not going to risk his health here at the end of his career. I believe this is going to be a repeat of the Charlo fight (a black american fighter), Bud may engage a little at the beginning for the fans, but as soon as he gets a taste of Canelo's power, he is going into survival mode, and stay away all night, then take the loss, collect his millions and retire.
Bud will be laughing all the way to the bank, thinking about all the people who bought the hype that he was showing up to do anything more than collect a check.
Muhammad Rasheed - Don wrote:
"If you're that sure about it, you should bet"Gambling is against my religion.
Don wrote:
"despite your black racial superiority hypothesis"I don't have such a hypothesis, or I would have included African and Caribbean fighters, which I didn't.
My hypothesis is based on the "styles make fights" concept, and which style is traditionally favored by which ethnic heritage camp.
Don wrote:
"The first time Bud faced an opponent of comparable strength, Madrimov, he struggled [...]
when Bud is not the stronger man, he struggles."That's a terrible take. The challenge with Madrimov was his Central Asian style was unusual, combined with the fact that he was an awkward counterpuncher. This made Crawford more cautious than usual, because he had to figure out the unique alien approach Madrimov brought. It didn't have anything to do with strength/size.
Don wrote:
"and you expect it to be an easy win for Bud????🤣🤣🤣
"I sure do.
Don wrote:
"You're analyzing this fight as fan of Crawford, instead of being objective."I honestly don't think you even know what that means. You're just typing what you heard from somewhere and think it sounded good in the moment.
Don wrote:
"He has 7 kids, why would he put his life or his health at risk this close to retirement???"Because he's confident that he'll easily solve the Mexican fighter's style puzzle with zero problem. I have no reason to doubt him.
Don wrote:
"I believe this is going to be a repeat of the Charlo fight (a black american fighter)"Jermell Charlo is a lesser caliber of fighter than Bud, and has a weaker training camp. He also chickened out of a fight with Crawford, which shows he has a weak heart. He lost to Canelo because 1) he didn't put on the weight correctly and just wanted to snatch the big pay day, and 2) he believed the pro-Canelo naysayers more than he believed in himself and in his own abilities. Crawford would never have that problem.
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