Wednesday, December 23, 2015

With Every Wind of Doctrine...

Gary McCoy – Here's the situation:

Some politicians and media pundits tell us that the Muslims in this country are all patriotic and peace-loving. But they then go on to tell us that using the term, "radical Islamic extremists", or speaking of temporarily banning Muslims from entering the country, could very well push "over the edge", those Muslims feeling disenfranchised, to where they join ISIS and commit terrorism in our country.
SO, what they're actually saying is that we have Muslims in our country at this very moment, whose temperament is so volatile, that hearing Donald's Trump plan, or other criticism of Islamic extremism, could then begin killing their fellow Americans.
Sounds like we need to immediately start retroactive profiling, and fast.

Michael Nicholson - They also want to take away "anti-choice rhetoric" for the exact same reason. They just have everyone's best interests in mind. So long as you're lefty.

Gordon Campbell - "That pesky 1st amendment has to go! Just as soon as we dismantle the 2nd!"

Marc Sova - Exactly. It's like obama telling us they are not Muslims. Then saying that invading is what they what us to do so it fulfills their Koranic prophecy.

Muhammad Rasheed - lol What "Koranic prophecy" would that be, Marc? ISIS/ISIL hasn't been interested in what the Qur'an says up to now, why would they suddenly give a shit about prophecies today? The only serious prophecy in the Qur'an of relevance is the one where God promises that the Day of Judgment is a certainty, and the evil doers will be flung head first into The Pit. ISIS is clearly unconcerned about it. Odd considering they claim allegiance to the religion of the One God.
Marc Sova - Well I don't expect you to put much stock in the über right wing New York Times (which is sourced in this article)...

Fighting an army of the insane - Obama’s foreign policy plays into Koranic ‘prophecy’

Muhammad Rasheed - The part that stands out most is her instant willingness to quote Jean-Pierre Filiu, but no quotes of this actual "prophecy." I guess they're afraid people will Snopes it to death...?

Marc Sova - So you're saying it is totally false that there is anything in the Koran about a prophecy regarding an Armageddon like battle with "Rome" (i.e.- the west).

Muhammad Rasheed - The only mention of a battle like that was one in the prophet's lifetime between Romans vs Persians. There is no end time prophecy battle mentioned between specific armies.

Muhammad Rasheed - I wanted her to quote it so I could scrutinize it in context.

Marc Sova - Ok well what about non specific armies? Any prophetic mention of end time battle with any army?

Muhammad Rasheed - lol No. When He mentions the Day of Judgment, it's all about smashing the earth in a cataclysm, and then resurrecting us. The Qur'an is chock-full-of that. Graphically.

Muhammad Rasheed - He mentioned Gabriel blowing his horn though.

Dianne Hauser - Agree It will be a very dangerous mess if they let the illegal Muslims in before proper vetting.

Steamy Raimon - Let's start at the top.

Muhammad Rasheed - I think the situation is that you value the opinion of politicians and media pundits and base decisions on what they say.

Gary McCoy - Muhammad, I don't value anyone's opinion so much that I would kill for it.

Muhammad Rasheed - lol You value the opinion of politicians and media pundits enough to believe their word that we should continue to provoke people into war.

Gary McCoy - I don't know what people or what words to which you're referring. But I measure people carefully before I follow anything they say. What do you think about Obama provoking people into war by killing innocents with drone attacks?

Muhammad Rasheed - Gary McCoy wrote: "I don't know what people or what words to which you're referring."

1.) "Some politicians and media pundits tell us..."
2.) "But they then go on to tell us..."
3.) "SO, what they're actually saying is..."
4.) "Sounds like we need to..."

That sounds like you are tossed around willy-nilly by political talking heads, instead of measuring carefully anything.

Gary McCoy wrote: "What do you think about Obama provoking people into war by killing innocents with drone attacks?"

I think your phrasing also betrays your lack of measuring anything carefully. lol The drones represent a couple of things:

1.) Both partisan groups contribute to the Industrial Military Complex, but Democrats favor small fire teams with semi-precise strikes, while the GOP prefer to enrich all of their buddies by strutting out the full $10 billion a day war machine. The people pulling the triggers on the drones hitting the wrong folk were the same people pulling the triggers on the super guns that killed the wrong targets during the previous administration. They are either trigger happy crazy, or they just need more training.

2.) There was a full blown war going on when Obama took office. He wanted to shut the whole thing down and bring all of our troops home, but the top-ranked military advisers (and their CEO handlers) convinced him otherwise. So he felt that sending assassin drones would be the lesser evil over sending out more & more waves of American youth overseas.

Gary McCoy - Really? Obama listens to his top military advisers? That's news to me. I could name a half dozen or so that no longer have their jobs because of him.

Gary McCoy - You are the one claiming I listen to the media pundits. I never claimed I do. Read more carefully.

Muhammad Rasheed - Gary McCoy wrote: "Really? Obama listens to his top military advisers? That's news to me."

They convinced him not to withdraw all of the troops the way he originally pushed. That was one of the things Petreaus was complaining about. I don't understand how you missed that.

Muhammad Rasheed - Gary McCoy wrote: "You are the one claiming I listen to the media pundits. I never claimed I do. Read more carefully."

lol Are you a "birther," Gary? Do you believe Obama is a Muslim who won't admit it? Do you believe he started this war in the middle east?

Gary McCoy - I don't understand how you missed the fact that Obama was advised to leave a larger contingency force behind in Iraq, but he ignored them. And that was a disastrous decision.

Muhammad Rasheed - Disastrous how? The west's empire building is the reason for all the strife in the first place. I still agree with his original goals and say bring all American troops home, and allow the areas to work themselves out to heal from all the interference. It won't be easy, and it will get uglier before it levels off, but at least we can get tour hands out of it...

...until the war-hungry GOP take over again, of course.

David Baldinger - I believe the "Arab world" was being referenced, not Muslim Americans.

Gary McCoy - By who, David?

David Baldinger - "Some politicians and media pundits..."

Mitchell Berger - You're missing the point. If you want someone to stick their neck out - to say something when they see something - which most people of any stripe are reluctant to do - then you don't demonize their entire group.

Gary McCoy - Sorry, Mitchell, but I call bunk on your premise. And you just made my point even stronger for me. If I suspected that someone I knew was stockpiling means of killing innocent citizen, especially children, I'd stand on their front porch with a bullhorn until police arrived. There's no justification for not doing so, even if your feelings are hurt because someone said mean things about your religion. Again, if we have people who would kill over insensitive "words", or look the other way while others do, then we don't want those people walking our streets. If I were in a Muslim country, I don't care how many mean things people were saying about Christians, I would never walk into an Eid Al-Adha party and start killing innocent people.

Gordon Campbell - And, Gary, as a Christian, if you knew of someone planning on doing so, you would be committing a sin against God by not reporting it! Can Muslims say the same?

Muhammad Rasheed - Of course. Fighting in the cause of Allah is prescribed to Muslims; if they refuse to do so, it would be a sin. What is God's cause? Protecting the innocent would definitely be included. Reporting wrong-doing is the least you should do.

Bahaar Husain - @Gary McCoy… Excellent point, we must keep in mind that these are not muslims who are killing innocent people. Not every Christian is a terrorist and not every Muslim is a terrorist. And not everyone becomes a terrorist. These so called extremists are downright terrorists and criminals. They are envious of our freedom and can't stand to see anyone happy. This is a war between good and evil. In the end, good always prevails.

Mitchell Berger - @Gary McCoy… you are not typical in any manner. When confronted with troubling information most people freeze, or disbelieve what they see. You would not get the NRA to agree that possessing a couple of AR-15s and thousands of rounds of ammunition, is in and of itself a suspicious activity. There's no evidence that anyone else other than Marquez knew about the pipe bombs.

Jim Singer - Truth wins Gary. Why was BHO's decision to leave Iraq the basis of the Caliphate? Because it is a natural law that pressure will fill a vacuum. Nineteen thirty three ought to give us a hint what happens when an you give an aggressor with no qualms of killing a chance to fill space. The Sudetenland should raise a flag. Much like the Third Reich and their goal of a thousand year empire, so is ISIS and their duty to kill in the cause of Allah. Ironically, today's Muslims are more alike the 12th Century Crusaders or Jews of 4000 years ago. Which culture is the aggressor? While there are many of the Judeo/Christian culture today who believe the Bible is the exact word of God, where are they butchering non-believers. They are not, unless personally threatened in which case butchery becomes self-defense. Let's f this culture does not aggressively fight back, the "moderate Muslim" will prevail. I think not.

Mitchell Berger - The fact that Bush tied Obama's hands by failing to get the status of forces agreement Obama would need in order to keep our troops in Iraq. There is virtually nothing going on in Iraq that isn't the result of Bush's monumental bungle. What's happening now, is exactly what Bush was warned of in 2003.

Gary McCoy - My gosh, what a weak leader you just admitted we have. I'll agree completely. Your argument would make sense if the facts, and Obama's own White house didn't refute it.

No, U.S. Troops Didn’t Have to Leave Iraq

Mitchell Berger - @Gary McCoy… An opinion piece from a conservative publication is proof of nothing. The idea that Iranian puppet Nouri al Maliki (a Bush pick) would ever let more than a token force of US troops remain in Iraq is laughable.

Gerry Harris - Mitchell your fat mouth isn't proof of anything either, other than you're an idiot.

Mitchell Berger - Gerry, quick, how many years did al Maliki spend in Iran? Who did he support in the Iran-Iraq war? When you look up the answers to those questions then maybe you can explain why Bush approved him to take over Iraq. History, try it.

Jim Singer - Mitchell Do you really believe BHO wanted a status of forces agreement? Abraham could have been the Iraqi leader and there would be no status of forces agreement. BMO is so arrogant he believes he can redefine human warfare where if one side goes home the other will not react. Speaking of history, when President Bush handed the keys over to Obama, Iraq was largely pacified. Obama's desire to "end the war" is the reason we will have to eventually clean up his mess. If we don't, expect more of your friends and neighbors to die in their homes and public places.

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